UM WBB Recruiting - 2021 & Beyond

Posted by: turkeyman on Sun Apr 5th, 2020 12:56 pm
Hate to pile on, Cim, but UMSF and MJ are dead on. You couldn't possibly have written what you wrote if you had seen any UMaine women's games this year. Maeve Carroll belonged on the AE first team. Not only did she sharpen her back-to-the basket play, but she adjusted to her opponent for every game. One game, she would emphasize the scoop, knowing that her defender c/wouldn't go low to stop her. Another game, she'd keep the ball high, knowing that her defender c/wouldn't get off the floor to guard her. Another game, she would go left more often, knowing that her defender didn't move well to the right, next game the opposite. I asked someone close to the team if the players were watching a lot of film because they seemed always to be ready to play against each game's opponents. The short answer was everyone is watching a lot of film. Players and coaches all paid attention. (Woody Allen is wrong. Showing up is not 85 percent of success. Paying attention is. Hartford showed up 29 times, succeeded once.) The only coach whom I saw well prepared for Maeve was Tom Garrick of Lowell in what turned out to the the final game of the year. His post consistently went low with Maeve to try to stop the scoop shot. Maeve adjusted in two ways. She took the ball across the lane several times to hit from the other side, and she dished often. Her numbers that day were 14 points, 13 boards, seven assists, a block and two steals. She shot six for 12. Height helps, no doubt. But it is not the be all and end all. USM went to the national championship game in 2005 with a 5-9 post playing back to the basket (Ashley Marble of Woodland). Marble was DIII national player of the year, if I remember correctly. Bowdoin got as deep as the elite eight when Jill Anelauskas played back to the basket (2005-'09). She, too, was 5-9, and Bowdoin was starting players taller than her each year. I know, I know, DIII is not DI, though the difference between them is far less on the women's side than on the men's side, and USM (then) and Bowdoin are elite teams in DIII. Almost every year I see DIII players who could play DI if they were, say, a step faster, 15 pounds heavier, stronger in the upper body, etc. For that matter, Ashley Marble probably could have played DI, but UMaine's coach at the time didn't invite her for a tryout after her volleyball experience went south. Kat Williams had some nice offensive moves, but she did not have the mobility or foot speed to be a starter at this level. Kira Barra was a gamble from the start, with her injury history, and it just didn't pay off. She could play a few minutes at a time, snag a rebound or two and hit her really sweet shot from 12 feet in, but she couldn't defend. Her bad legs denied her the agility to play defense. Yeah, if Maine can find bigs who have the ability and the health to develop, that will help. But one of the characteristics that makes Amy Vachon a great coach is that she understands her team's assets and builds on those. None of those assets this year was height. Still, the team went from 3-8 to 18-14. With no starter taller than Maeve at 5-11. Bob Neal New Sharon
Posted by: bcbc55 on Sun Apr 5th, 2020 3:55 pm
UMSF, MJ and TM: Carroll had no power game in the post that is why she missed a lot of moving layups and had her shots blocked.She got a lot more touches in the paint than Tanesha Sutton did and Sutton averaged 14.2 points per game, Carrol 12.4.Had Sutton got the touches on the block that Carroll did she would have averaged over 20 plus points per game.How many of Carroll's 77 assists were for 3 pointers did Carroll get when she was moving to take those shots?Carroll did a great job for her size, but she was an inch taller than Sutton. Sutton made "hay while the sun shined" with the few touches she got on the block compared to Carroll, when she got the ball on the block and she didn't miss many shots either or have her shot blocked much and she got to the foul line.If Carrol had mixed her block game with power layups she would have really been an outstanding post player.Also when shooting on the move in the paint takes you away from offensive rebounding position illustrated by Carroll's 72 offensive boards to Sutton's 107. Sutton shot 49% and Carroll 50% from the floor. Sutton got to the foul line more because she powered 125 foul shots for 78% to Carroll's 75 foul shots for 76%.Sutton didn't post up on the block half as much as Carroll did and Sutton shot 50 more foul shots. No power game less foul shots on the block.Also Wadling played in 23 games with Sutton as the post player so you can see why Sutton did not get to the post anywhere near the times Carroll did.All teams had to do to give Carroll a harder time getting the ball on the block was to front her or deny her the ball in the post or double team her before she got the ball.Had Maine's opponents offensively posted up all the mismatches that they had Maine would have had a much tougher time.Just my opinion and opinions are like noses, everyone has one. Right or wrong in others opinions. Just have to agree to disagree that's all. "Just different basketball strokes for basketball folks" or "what floats your basketball boat doesn't float my basketball boat".
Posted by: UMaineSuperfan on Mon Apr 6th, 2020 6:00 pm
this really isn't an opinion issue. you're just wrong.Maeve shot over 50% from the field and schooled every post defender she faced in conference on the block using an array of moves from both sides of the lane, while being a terrific rebounder and team defender despite being undersized and having to play tentatively at times due to being the only serviceable post player on the team. not every player has to adhere to this stringent set of qualities you desire to be a good post player. We don't need you to be the arbiter of who is good and who isn't, we have stats and accolades to help prove what's going on. Maeve was 2nd team and there's a reasonable argument to be made that she should have been first team, she shot an efficient percentage from the floor, and she performed really well against the best competition in the league. facts don't care about your noses or whatever the heck you type about.what will it take for you to just admit Maeve is a skilled post player? why would she use a power layup when her moves worked just fine? she was thrust into this role with virtually no help down there and she added a ton to her game in a short period of time. She's a 20 year old junior in college who JUST got major minutes and you act like she's supposed to be Kevin flipping McHale out there. good lord you're just insufferable.please don't respond to this, because nobody wants to read your ramblings about this subject in the recruiting thread. start your own thread that nobody will respond to and let us preserve something readable in here.
Posted by: bcbc55 on Mon Apr 6th, 2020 6:30 pm
this really isn't an opinion issue. you're just wrong.
Maeve shot over 50% from the field and schooled every post defender she faced in conference on the block using an array of moves from both sides of the lane, while being a terrific rebounder and team defender despite being undersized and having to play tentatively at times due to being the only serviceable post player on the team. not every player has to adhere to this stringent set of qualities you desire to be a good post player. We don't need you to be the arbiter of who is good and who isn't, we have stats and accolades to help prove what's going on. Maeve was 2nd team and there's a reasonable argument to be made that she should have been first team, she shot an efficient percentage from the floor, and she performed really well against the best competition in the league. facts don't care about your noses or whatever the heck you type about.
what will it take for you to just admit Maeve is a skilled post player? why would she use a power layup when her moves worked just fine? she was thrust into this role with virtually no help down there and she added a ton to her game in a short period of time. She's a 20 year old junior in college who JUST got major minutes and you act like she's supposed to be Kevin flipping McHale out there. good lord you're just insufferable.
please don't respond to this, because nobody wants to read your ramblings about this subject in the recruiting thread. start your own thread that nobody will respond to and let us preserve something readable in here.
UMSF: I did say Carroll did a great job in the post for her size. With a power layup game included with her moving shots she would have been even more effective. Without a power layup game she had her shot blocked at times and missed layups at times and averaged less then 3 offensive boards per game. Using the power layup with ball fakes, head fakes and combo of the two or going right away she would not have had as many blocked shots, missed layups and would have got more offensive rebounds especially on her own missed power layups.By the why did you yourself ever play in the post with your back to the basket? Did you ever coach post players?
Posted by: bcbc55 on Mon Apr 6th, 2020 6:57 pm
[quote="UMaineSuperfan":nc1imaxy]this really isn't an opinion issue. you're just wrong.
Maeve shot over 50% from the field and schooled every post defender she faced in conference on the block using an array of moves from both sides of the lane, while being a terrific rebounder and team defender despite being undersized and having to play tentatively at times due to being the only serviceable post player on the team. not every player has to adhere to this stringent set of qualities you desire to be a good post player. We don't need you to be the arbiter of who is good and who isn't, we have stats and accolades to help prove what's going on. Maeve was 2nd team and there's a reasonable argument to be made that she should have been first team, she shot an efficient percentage from the floor, and she performed really well against the best competition in the league. facts don't care about your noses or whatever the heck you type about.
what will it take for you to just admit Maeve is a skilled post player? why would she use a power layup when her moves worked just fine? she was thrust into this role with virtually no help down there and she added a ton to her game in a short period of time. She's a 20 year old junior in college who JUST got major minutes and you act like she's supposed to be Kevin flipping McHale out there. good lord you're just insufferable.
please don't respond to this, because nobody wants to read your ramblings about this subject in the recruiting thread. start your own thread that nobody will respond to and let us preserve something readable in here.
[/quote:nc1imaxy]UMSF: I did say Carroll did a great job in the post for her size. With a power layup game included with her moving shots she would have been even more effective. Without a power layup game she had her shot blocked at times and missed layups at times and averaged less then 3 offensive boards per game. Using the power layup with ball fakes, head fakes and combo of the two or going right away she would not have had as many blocked shots, missed layups and would have got more offensive rebounds especially on her own missed power layups.By the way did you yourself ever play in the post with your back to the basket? Did you ever coach small ( 6 feet and under) average (6'1" to 6'3"), above average (6'4" to 6'6") or true BIGS 6'7" to 7'" post players?
Posted by: turkeyman on Mon Apr 6th, 2020 10:25 pm
Why is it necessary to make this a competition between Maeve and Tanesha? My four favorite ever Maine players are Liz Wood, Heather Ernest, Kim Cobritt and Tanesha Sutton. But no one here is competing with Tanesha. She went to Sweden to give the Europeans a taste of competing against her. That isn't what Maeve is doing. The only comparison between Maeve and T might be when Maeve told the press during the season that she came into '19-'20 knowing she would have to step up her scoring to replace some of Tanesha's points. She didn't say to replace Tanesha. And Coach Vachon, I'm sure, didn't ask her to replace T. She asked Maeve to double down and develop her own skills more. As I posted earlier, that is a Vachon strength, focusing on and devleoping the assets the players bring to the team. Maeve responded big time. One of the things that happened when she started focusing on scoring was that her offensive rebounding decreased slightly (from 11 minutes played per O board to 13 this year). Stands to reason, since when she missed a shot, she was usually facing the basket with at least one defender between her and the ball. Last year, playing roughly half the minutes she played this year, she was team third in offensive boards. Take a look at the video of the AE tournament game in the Pit. On one play she dribbled across the low block with three River Hawks hanging on her and still scored, shooting left-handed. Who doesn't miss layups with three defenders hanging on? But she hit that one. On another play, on the other side of the basket, she had to shoot around two defenders, shooting right-handed this time, and she put the ball up too high and too far to the left, but she had just the right spin it so when it bounced off the board the backspin dropped it into the basket. The grin on her face when that shot dropped looked like pure satisfaction. As UMSF pointed out, she had to be carefully aggressive because there was no post backing her up. If you recall, she was foul prone in her freshman year. At the rate she fouled two years ago (one every eight minutes), she would have fouled out every game this year. Most of us are on this board because we like UMaine sports. Each of us has one or two or three favorite teams. Mine, as anyone knows, is women's basketball. I will be and have been critical of some aspects of the program or of some players' performances. But the point of being on this board isn't to run down young people a quarter my age who are here to learn. These young women learned so well that they won 10 of their final 14 games, playing with only six (and then five) fully serviceable players. It burns me when people come on here just to complain or to hold the players to a set of standards that went out with the two-hand set shot and the underhand free throw. That's one reason I left the board for most of the last half of the wbb season. Yeah, point it out when something is done wrong. But this isn't a competition either among UMaine players (on any team) or between today's players and the players of the George Mikan era. Glad I'm not so ensconced in a mindset that I couldn't enjoy and marvel at what this team did this year. For those of us who follow the team, it was tough early on to lose to clearly inferior teams (Brown, Dartmouth, BU, Northeastern, UMBC), but even during the early struggles, Maine beat back Navy and it beat perennial mid-major power Green Bay, 61-60. On a buzzer-beater. By whom? Oh, right, Maeve Carroll. Bob Neal New Sharon
Posted by: bcbc55 on Mon Apr 6th, 2020 11:18 pm
Why is it necessary to make this a competition between Maeve and Tanesha? My three favorite ever Maine players are Heather Ernest, Kim Cobritt and Tanesha Sutton. But no one here is competing with Tanesha. She went to Sweden to give the Europeans a taste of competing against her. That isn't what Maeve is doing.
The only comparison between Maeve and T might be when Maeve told the press during the season that she came into '19-'20 knowing she would have to step up her scoring to replace some of Tanesha's points. She didn't say to replace Tanesha. And Coach Vachon, I'm sure, didn't ask her to replace T. She asked Maeve to double down and develop her own skills more. As I posted earlier, that is a Vachon strength, focusing on and devleoping the assets the players bring to the team. Maeve responded big time.
One of the things that happened when she started focusing on scoring was that her offensive rebounding decreased slightly (from 11 minutes played per O board to 13 this year). Stands to reason, since when she missed a shot, she was usually facing the basket with at least one defender between her and the ball. Last year, playing roughly half the minutes she played this year, she was team third in offensive boards.
Take a look at the video of the AE tournament game in the Pit. On one play she dribbled across the low block with three River Hawks hanging on her and still scored, shooting left-handed. Who doesn't miss layups with three defenders hanging on? But she hit that one. On another play, on the other side of the basket, she had to shoot around two defenders, shooting right-handed this time, and she put the layup too high and too far to the left, but she had just the right spin on the ball so when it bounced off the board the backspin dropped it into the basket. The grin on her face when that shot dropped must have been pure satisfaction.
As UMSF pointed out, she had to be carefully aggressive because there was no post backing her up. If you recall, she was foul prone in her freshman year. At the rate she fouled two years ago (one every eight minutes), she would have fouled out every game this year.
Most of us are on this board because we like UMaine sports. Each of us has one or two or three favorite teams. Mine, as anyone knows, is women's basketball. I will be and have been critical of some aspects of the program or of some players' performances. But the point of being on this board isn't to run down young people a quarter my age who are here to learn. These young women learned so well that they won 10 of their final 14 games, playing with only six (and then five) fully serviceable players. It burns me when people come on here just to complain or to hold the players to a set of standards that went out with the two-hand set shot and the underhand free throw. That's one reason I left the board for most of the last half of the wbb season.
Yeah, point it out when something is done wrong. But this isn't a competition either among UMaine players (on any team) or between today's players and the players of the George Mikan era. Glad I'm not so ensconced in a mindset that I couldn't enjoy and marvel at what this team did this year. For those of us who follow the team it was tough early on to lose to clearly inferior teams (Brown, Dartmouth, BU, Northeastern, UMBC), but even during the early struggles, Maine beat back Navy and it beat perennial mid-major power Green Bay, 61-60. On a buzzer-beater. By whom? Oh, right, Maeve Carroll.
Bob Neal
New Sharon
"Bob": To me it is a comparison not a competition. It wasn't Carroll's fault she did not develop a power layup game.That is a coaching situation. With no member of the coaching staff ever having been a post up player on the block as they were all face-the-basket players. Could have had Sutton as a player/coach when she was playing to develop the other post players (Carroll and Wadling)The reason Carroll only averaged 2.4 offensive rebounds this past season is when you miss a shot on the block while on the move to shoot it takes you under the basket, out of good rebounding position, but when you power layup correctly it is usually because you didn't jump hard enough and the ball is just a little short. hits the rim and comes right back to you as you are right where you should be. Again as a post player she did not get to the foul line enough as a post player. Again not her fault because she did not have a power layup game.Wadling also did/does not have much of a power layup game either. The best power layup player was T. Sutton and she got to the block more by accident then by design.Again just my opinion having developed a lot of post players on how to seal their defender, how to signal for the ball, show passer where and when they want the ball then to use head fakes, ball fakes, combo's of, and going right away without faking. Then using the power layup for the shot. Also, the offensive player in that position getting ready to power has a big advantage over the defender because the player with the ball knows when they are going to leave their feet and the defender does not know, That is why the defenders many times bite for the fakes and leave their feet and then the offensive player powers as the defender is coming down or the defender fouls the power shooter.Good defenders never leave their feet when guarding a player with the ball leaves their feet. Guarding a player on the block is the hardest place to defend in a one on one situation.All players should have these post up skills to take advantage of mismatches, which most of Maine women's opponents didn't do as most of the opponent teams had a lot of mismatches on the floor because of Maine's lack of average size.Also, having a good post up power game is the best. quickest and easiest way to get open threes especially when the post player is double teamed. They didn't have a 3 point line in George Mikan's era.Again, "different basketball strokes for different basketball folks" or "What floats others basketball boats doesn't necessarily float my basketball boat".Just because we don't see many good post up/power layup teams today (because of the over use and abuse of the 3) does not mean it cannot be very effective if coached properly at all levels.
Posted by: bcbc55 on Mon Apr 6th, 2020 11:31 pm
[quote="turkeyman":1gcikcqo]Why is it necessary to make this a competition between Maeve and Tanesha? My three favorite ever Maine players are Heather Ernest, Kim Cobritt and Tanesha Sutton. But no one here is competing with Tanesha. She went to Sweden to give the Europeans a taste of competing against her. That isn't what Maeve is doing.
The only comparison between Maeve and T might be when Maeve told the press during the season that she came into '19-'20 knowing she would have to step up her scoring to replace some of Tanesha's points. She didn't say to replace Tanesha. And Coach Vachon, I'm sure, didn't ask her to replace T. She asked Maeve to double down and develop her own skills more. As I posted earlier, that is a Vachon strength, focusing on and devleoping the assets the players bring to the team. Maeve responded big time.
One of the things that happened when she started focusing on scoring was that her offensive rebounding decreased slightly (from 11 minutes played per O board to 13 this year). Stands to reason, since when she missed a shot, she was usually facing the basket with at least one defender between her and the ball. Last year, playing roughly half the minutes she played this year, she was team third in offensive boards.
Take a look at the video of the AE tournament game in the Pit. On one play she dribbled across the low block with three River Hawks hanging on her and still scored, shooting left-handed. Who doesn't miss layups with three defenders hanging on? But she hit that one. On another play, on the other side of the basket, she had to shoot around two defenders, shooting right-handed this time, and she put the layup too high and too far to the left, but she had just the right spin on the ball so when it bounced off the board the backspin dropped it into the basket. The grin on her face when that shot dropped must have been pure satisfaction.
As UMSF pointed out, she had to be carefully aggressive because there was no post backing her up. If you recall, she was foul prone in her freshman year. At the rate she fouled two years ago (one every eight minutes), she would have fouled out every game this year.
Most of us are on this board because we like UMaine sports. Each of us has one or two or three favorite teams. Mine, as anyone knows, is women's basketball. I will be and have been critical of some aspects of the program or of some players' performances. But the point of being on this board isn't to run down young people a quarter my age who are here to learn. These young women learned so well that they won 10 of their final 14 games, playing with only six (and then five) fully serviceable players. It burns me when people come on here just to complain or to hold the players to a set of standards that went out with the two-hand set shot and the underhand free throw. That's one reason I left the board for most of the last half of the wbb season.
Yeah, point it out when something is done wrong. But this isn't a competition either among UMaine players (on any team) or between today's players and the players of the George Mikan era. Glad I'm not so ensconced in a mindset that I couldn't enjoy and marvel at what this team did this year. For those of us who follow the team it was tough early on to lose to clearly inferior teams (Brown, Dartmouth, BU, Northeastern, UMBC), but even during the early struggles, Maine beat back Navy and it beat perennial mid-major power Green Bay, 61-60. On a buzzer-beater. By whom? Oh, right, Maeve Carroll.
Bob Neal
New Sharon
[/quote:1gcikcqo]"Bob": To me it is a comparison not a competition. It wasn't Carroll's fault she did not develop a power layup game.That is a coaching situation. With no member of the coaching staff ever having been a post up player on the block as they were all face-the-basket players. Could have had Sutton as a player/coach when she was playing to develop the other post players (Carroll and Wadling)The reason Carroll only averaged 2.4 offensive rebounds this past season is when you miss a shot on the block while on the move to shoot it takes you under the basket, out of good rebounding position, but when you power layup correctly it is usually because you didn't jump hard enough and the ball is just a little short. hits the rim and comes right back to you as you are right where you should be. Again as a post player she did not get to the foul line enough as a post player. Again not her fault because she did not have a power layup game.Wadling also did/does not have much of a power layup game either. The best power layup player was T. Sutton and she got to the block more by accident then by design.Again just my opinion having developed a lot of post players on how to seal their defender, how to signal for the ball, show passer where and when they want the ball then to use head fakes, ball fakes, combo's of, and going right away without faking. Then using the power layup for the shot. Also, the offensive player in that position getting ready to power has a big advantage over the defender because the player with the ball knows when they are going to leave their feet and the defender does not know, That is why the defenders many times bite for the fakes and leave their feet and then the offensive player powers as the defender is coming down or the defender fouls the power shooter.Good defenders never leave their feet when guarding a player with the ball leaves their feet. Guarding a player on the block is the hardest place to defend in a one on one situation.All players should have these post up skills to take advantage of mismatches, which most of Maine women's opponents didn't do as most of the opponent teams had a lot of mismatches on the floor because of Maine's lack of average size.Also, having a good post up power game is the best. quickest and easiest way to get open threes especially when the post player is double teamed. They didn't have a 3 point line in George Mikan's era.Again, "different basketball strokes for different basketball folks" or "What floats others basketball boats doesn't necessarily float my basketball boat".Just because we don't see many good post up/power layup teams today (because of the over use and abuse of The main reason the inside power game is becoming extinct is because of there are very few back-to-the-basket players do not go into coaching today at any level is because they did not see the ball enough when they were playing. This means most of today's coaches were face the basket players with little appreciation or skill to coach the inside power game. Too bad, because it would really improve their 3 point game that most use or should I say overuse, in my opinion.
Posted by: UMaineSuperfan on Wed Apr 8th, 2020 10:49 am
Vachon and her coaching staff somehow managed to help turn Carroll from a marginal player to an extremely efficient second team all conference selection, but it's all for naught and they suck at coaching since they didn't teach her a power layup. Cim has just become a parody of himself. Honestly more people on this board need to tell him how wrong he is or he'll never stop.