UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defense

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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby turkeyman » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:25 pm

To 19, PQ: I fully agree. Officials don't beat you. At Toledo, Maine led by 10 with four minutes to go and did not score again until OT. Can't blame that on officiating. But at Toledo the officiating was really bad. I credit Coach Vachon, too, for not complaining or sulking about it. And ask Vachon about the last-second foul called against her at Southwest Missouri State in 1999 that gave Jackie Stiles two free throws to win the game. The officials that afternoon were from the MVC and the Big 12.

The big problem with bad officiating is that the players can't know how to react. If officials are calling a "west coast" game, players will often back off and never touch an opponent, even when it is allowable by the rules. Last night at BC, an Eagle got whistled in the fourth quarter for touching (I believe it was Fanny) just barely and just after she had received a pass a mid-court. The touch was legally a hand check, and a few years ago hand checks against the player with the ball were made illegal. But the BC kid was surprised this one was called. None had been called all night, so it did seem odd from the stands, too.

If the officials are going to "let the players play," they need to do that, too. Let the kids know how the game is going to be called, and they will adjust, especially if they have good coaching. Inconsistency is the biggest problem. At Toledo, the trend moved from calling everything early, which would probably work against the visiting team playing in a first-time gym, to calling nothing (middle of the game) and then back to calling everything late in the game (except six players on the court) and against the team making the comeback.

It is also very hard on players and coaches when officials disagree on how to call the game: tight, loose or in-between.

There may be no better official in wbb than John Palermo. He tends to be down the middle between tight and loose. He is particularly good, I believe, at assessing quickly whether an action (a push, a tug on the jersey, an elbow, etc.) gave the offender or her team an advantage and then blowing or not blowing the whistle. I have watched him try to cope when he was assigned with two officials having bad nights. Even when he was lead official, he would not just overrule bad calls. But you would see him talking with the other officials during dead balls, etc. I did see him once (against Albany, I believe), run over to another official, take the ball and reverse the other official's call. That other official took notice, and some of the cheesy stuff he had been calling ended. The rest of the game was pretty much down the middle.

It is particularly hard on players to have one really good official on the floor and two doing badly. Everyone has bad nights, but when an official has one, it affects the players and it affects the game. Not how the game comes out but how the game is played. And over the course of a game, calls usually even out, more or less. With the fouls called on Toledo in the fourth quarter, the final tally was Maine 25, Toledo 18, which means 16 of the last 27 fouls were called on Toledo.

I ran into another official earlier this year, one who had officiated in DI in the Carolinas. She was excited that the next day she was working a game with Palermo. She agreed with my assessment that not many are better.
We have some other really good officials around here, too. Reta Brown, Jack Riordan and Joanne Aldrich to name three in D I. Mary Parker (if she's still calling), Duke Madsden and Al Cloutier in D III. Mary called the D III final four in Springfield in 2005. And Bill Doolin in D II and D III. Lots of others, and I probably shouldn't have named some and overlooked others.

PQ, you're right. BC isn't very good, and Maine should have won. Some, but not all, of those teams that have beaten BC are pretty good. About midway through the fourth quarter, the score was 58-26. That's a pretty accurate statement of the difference between Maine and BC last night. When Erik Johnson put in the end of his bench and Coach Vachon put in the end of hers, the score tightened some.

Johnson seems to be emphasizing youth. Two of his three seniors got limited PT. I asked the guy who rode down there with me who he thought was BC's floor leader. Neither of us could say that the Eagles had one. Someone brought the ball up, but she did not seem in any way the leader. Emma Guy (No. 11) scored 13 (10, I believe in the first half) but was in no way the go-to player. She just took advantage of a few defensive breakdowns.

Your overall point about BC's decline since going to the ACC is interesting. Since I don't follow all sports with the intensity I follow wbb, it would be hard for me to judge. Certainly Cathy Inglese built a terrific program there. And BC beat Maine twice in 1999-2000 by 28 points each time, the year after Maine beat Stanford in the NCAAs. No one has been able to go into BC and follow her act. But, then, she didn't do so well subsequently when she returned to coaching.

It does seem odd that BC would fall so much. Jesuit schools -- I attended a Jesuit school, Rockhurst in Kansas City -- usually have great support from the administration for athletics. Georgetown, Loyola-Marymount, Canisius, the Cross, Marquette, XU, Rockhurst, Creighton, St. Louis U., U. of Seattle, etc. And formerly BC, I guess. Wonder what has happened.

Bob Neal
New Sharon
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby parquetfloor » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:35 pm

mainejeff wrote:Yes, if players were robots they wouldn’t even need refs. That would make you sad... :cry: :cry: :cry:

So what I don’t get is why you are putting poor reffing on the players??? Why are you demanding perfection from players buy not refs??? I smell a rat....


What on earth? My point was that a single call at the end of the game is not what ultimately decides a game as there are countless things that happen during the preceding 39+ minutes. Demanding perfection? What? Basketball is a game of mistakes...generally speaking, the team that minimizes those mistakes comes out the winner. Both players & refs make mistakes, pretty sure we all know that. I really don't get where your hostility is coming from.

And, if you think I'm a ref or former ref, you are sadly mistaken. That's funny.
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby mainejeff » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:25 pm

Hostility?....just disagreement. Truce?
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby Maine19Fan » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:29 pm

Not a former official here, either.
99.9% of the time the game is decided by the players, not the officials.
But, yes, fans look at things through the glasses of their respective school colors.

Lots of complaining about the refs. Mr. Neal seems to do his share.

I could go on and on, but the only point is we should care less about way games are officiated and more about what our players are doing.

Almost universally, officials who get to the D1 level are very good ones. Do they occasionally have what we might perceive as a "bad game?"
That's possible.
Then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think, Bob, that you know the names of the officials and can recall plays that, to you, were improperly made might mean you worry a little too much about the officiating.
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby mainejeff » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:34 pm

This whole officiating love fest is bizarre. THEY GET PAID to do their job! Hopefully, they do a good one most of the time! If you think some officials (humans!) don't let their homerism get the best of them sometimes then you are crazy! (or an official ;) )
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:54 pm

Of the three things I did in basketball, playing. coaching and officiating the easiest, most enjoyable and fun was officiating, especially at the college level. Where else can you get good exercise, get paid well for what you are doing, really enjoy what you are doing and not have to worry about who wins or losses the game and you are only half right every time you blow the whistle. That is because the team and their fans that is penalized is not happy and the team and its fans that it helps is happy. So batting .500 isn't bad. Just go home after the game, get a good night's sleep (compared to coaching and playing replaying game over and over again), and get ready for the next day's game assignment.

The more the ball went in the basket the easier it was to ref and call the game.

Always tried to use the advantage/disadvantage method for determining foul calls. Was a player put at a disadvantage or gained an advantage because of the contact. If no advantage/disadvantage then there should not be a whistle. Always tried to be a little late with the whistle as that way had less chabce of anticipating a call and being wrong. Better late then never.

Did my best officiating when I was coaching or a fan in the stands as I never missed a call.

Always thanked a player by his number whe n they got me the ball.

Didn't call many technical fouls on coaches because as a former coach I knew what they were going through.

Always tried to use humor to get my point across that the coach was getting out of line so as to warn them so I wouldn't have to call a T.

Refs will call a perfect game when both coaches teams play a perfect game,
because there would be no missed shots, no fouls, no violations, no balls going out of bounds, etc. so they would never blow their whistle when the clock was running.

Do refs lose games? Yes, they can make crucial wrong calls late in close 1 or 2 point games that gives a team a decided advantage and the call or no call effects who wins or losses the game.

I can remember 4 distinct calls that could of cost my teams 3 tournament games and 1 state championship game.

1. A whistle for a foul when the ball was dead on incidental contact 83 feet away from the opponents basket and a foul was called with 1 second left. It should have been a technical foul with the ball dead and it was called a personal foul when there should have been no call because the ball was dead and there was no advantage or disadvantage to either team. Opponents make 1 foul shot game over. Game should have gone to overtime. No game tape available

2. A very, very late traveling call on an outside shot that put us ahead by 1 with 3 seconds to go. Call was wrong and very, very late. Game tape showed it was not a travel and severl seconds late on whistel.

3. Ref did not know the closely guarded rule or misinterruputed the rule and 22 times missed calling a closely guarded 6 second violation situation which would have made a big difference in the game. Game tape showed the offcial was wrog on not callig 6 second cosely guarded call whih certainly effected the outcome.

4. Ref disallows a winning basket for us at the buzzer. Realizesd he made wrong call and gives us the ball back with 1 second left under our basket and we miss desperation 12 foot jumper. Basket should have counted and we win by one instead of losing by one. Tape clearly showed ref made wrong call in ot counting basket.

Now yes,I certainly agree that one play does not decide a game as we missed fouls shots, turned the ball over, and committed fouls, but in close games 1 or 2 pointers a call at the end that is wrong can lose a game or win a game for a team.

Everyone remembers that last call and forget most of the calls made before the last one. Just like a player missing a foul shot at the end of the game is no more important then a foul shot the player missed in the first quarter.

Very hard to evaluate fairly or criticize officials fairly if you haven't walked in their officials shoes.

Oh, by the way the only place that PERFECT GAME can be played is IN HEAVEN.
Last edited by bcbc55 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby mainejeff » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:44 pm

My god.....a thoroughly timely & perfect post by Bob Cimbollek!!! :o :o :o

Thank-you Bob!!! What a way to end 2017 on MBR! :)
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:49 pm

mainejeff wrote:My god.....a thoroughly timely & perfect post by Bob Cimbollek!!! :o :o :o

Thank-you Bob!!! What a way to end 2017 on MBR! :)


mainejeff: Your welcome MJ, but aren't you 2 days ahead of time? Still have Saturday and Sunday before 2017 ends.
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby Maine19Fan » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:05 pm

My goodness, yet another "It's all about Bob" dissertation!
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Re: UMaine women's basketball team stops BC 61-40 with defen

Postby mainejeff » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:08 pm

bcbc55 wrote:
mainejeff wrote:My god.....a thoroughly timely & perfect post by Bob Cimbollek!!! :o :o :o

Thank-you Bob!!! What a way to end 2017 on MBR! :)


mainejeff: Your welcome MJ, but aren't you 2 days ahead of time? Still have Saturday and Sunday before 2017 ends.


No matter what you post over the next 2 days....I will consider this your crowning achievement! Seriously....that was a good read and presented both sides of the coin!
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