CIM's BLOG: UMaine basketball teams week break for exams

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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why UMaine BB teams count non-D-1 stats?

Postby bcbc55 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:17 pm

Here is an interesting question for both UMaine mens and womens basketball fans. Why do they count the non-D-1 games statistics in their cumulative team and individual statistics.

The UMFK teams play in at least the 7th level of college basketball as D-1, D-2, D-3, NAIA 1 and 2 and Junior colleges are the top 6 levels. of the 10 different levels of college basketball

The women play D-3 Maine Maritime Academy along with UMFK who they defeated tonight 100-40 at the Cross Insurance Center, their home court in Bangor.

These 4 games (2 for each team) are included in the non-conference regular season schedules.

The stats and games do not count in the final D-1 RPI rankings for team totals as wins or losses or in official individual player statistics.

However, both teams include them in their team and individual cumulative scoring and statistics.

All this just usually does is to pad these statistics for the teams and players.

DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD COUNT THESE non D-1 non-conference games in their cumulative team and individiual stats????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

If you would like to know why they schedule D-2, D-3 and lower levels then junior college opponents just go to my "off the rim" column blog @ offtherimbangordailynews.com and hit it and you will find the answers to why.
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby thebam » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:26 am

If for some insane reason the games count for wins and losses, then the stats should count. Otherwise they shouldn't.
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby turkeyman » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:59 am

Well, Cim and Bam, I believe they do count and they don't.

In women's DI, teams are allowed to play 30 games a season. Every fourth year or so, a team may play more -- these limits do not include NCAA or WNIT tournament action -- by participating in a tournament of more than four teams, as Maine did in 2016-17 by playing in the Naismith Hall of Fame Challenge (South Carolina, St. Peter's, Hampton and Chattanooga).

While these below-division games count as part of the regular season, most RPI calculations do not include them, not NCAA, Jerry Palm, realtime, etc. The games are part of the record. The RPI is a mechanism or a device to try to compare teams by relative strength based on whom they played. The RPI is not part of the record but a piece of mathematics.

I believe that ESPN in the past did not count below-division games in listing team records, but last night it showed Maine at 3-1, which would have to include Fort Kent.

Seems to me that if the games count then what happened in the games counts, even though it does mean padding a lot of individual stats.

I'm more concerned about what the team gains from playing these games. Last night, perhaps the team learned that it needs to work more on defending the three. It also might have seen that as good as its team defense was last weekend, its helpside defense let too many Bengals through for easy shots last night. On the other hand, the game let some of the kids get some PT. Katt Williams and, I believe, Kira Barra both got their first DI points. Sierra Tapley dropped a couple of treys. Maddy was everywhere and was too unselfish or she, too, would have been in double figures. Maeve is showing me a lot. Very smart rebounder, seems to read her man well at both ends and is pretty mobile. Good hands. Noticed that Tanesha set up in the low post quite a bit in the second half. That may be the option on those nights that Fanny is sub-par, which she and Julie seemed to be last night. The PT did seem to make Katt more comfortable, though Kira seemed sometimes a bit perplexed. But they will both come along. Blanca must be near the top in the nation right now on shooting percentage. She's something like 25 for 31 in her three latest games.

Cim, I have seen your breakdown of the levels of college ball, but I can't find it. NCAA has Divs. I, II and III. Then NAIA has a Div. I and a Div. II, one of them for scholarship schools and one for non-scholarship. I believe UMFK is in the scholarship division. That makes five levels. Then there is the Christian-colleges organization, many of whose members are also in NAIA or NCAA DIII. That's six. And the junior-college organization makes seven. What are the other three? And how do you come to rank NAIA scholarship division as seventh? I remember seeing Dick Barnett playing for Tennessee State in the NAIA national tournament in 1952 in Kansas City -- 32-team tournament played in one week, eight games a day Monday-Wednesday and then four on Thursday and two each on Friday and Saturday -- and he went on to be a fair-to-middling NBA player. Not sure NAIA should stand that low. Massey RPI, which includes all teams from all organizations, often has Vanguard (a religious school in California to which Christiana Geristergiou transferred from Maine) in the top 100 in its overall RPI. Vanguard takes on big-time opponents in exhibitions. When it played Maine at Gorham in 2015, it went on to Storrs to play UConn two days later. Massey counts all games, so every time UConn wins, Vanguard's RPI gets a boost.

There won't be much of a breather for a while. Miami the day after Thanksgiving, then either Maryland (upset by Louisville last week) or Kennesaw two days later. Then Toledo, then Ohio State. Last pre-Christmas home game is MMA on Dec. 5, then off to Dartmouth (not off to its strongest start), Mississippi State, Duke and BC. All on the road. All will be good tests for this young team.

Bob Neal
New Sharon
Last edited by turkeyman on Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby dunbar » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:58 am

You can't just make up D-7. They're seperate organizations with different purposes and regulations, but you can't just claim, well, it's not NCAA, so it must be below it.
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:05 pm

dunbar wrote:You can't just make up D-7. They're seperate organizations with different purposes and regulations, but you can't just claim, well, it's not NCAA, so it must be below it.


dunbar: Last year I found a listing of 10 divisions of college basketball and they were ranked in the order that put UMFK in the 7th from D-1 and listed as 7 not D-7. I have not got time to look it up now, but I would not print or post any thing like making up 10 divisions. In fact, I made that same point last year after UMFK beat the Maine men at the PIT".

I will try to find it sometime today.
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:13 pm

turkeyman wrote:Well, Cim and Bam, I believe they do count and they don't.

In women's DI, teams are allowed to play 30 games a season. Every fourth year or so, a team may play more -- these limits do not include NCAA or WNIT tournament action -- by participating in a tournament of more than four teams, as Maine did in 2016-17 by playing in the Naismith Hall of Fame Challenge (South Carolina, St. Peter's, Hampton and Chattanooga).

While these below-division games count as part of the regular season, most RPI calculations do not include them, not NCAA, Jerry Palm, realtime, etc. The games are part of the record. The RPI is a mechanism or a device to try to compare teams by relative strength based on whom they played. The RPI is not part of the record but a piece of mathematics.

I believe that ESPN in the past did not count below-division games in listing team records, but last night it showed Maine at 3-1, which would have to include Fort Kent.

Seems to me that if the games count then what happened in the games counts, even though it does mean padding a lot of individual stats.

I'm more concerned about what the team gains from playing these games. Last night, perhaps the team learned that it needs to work more on defending the three. It also might have seen that as good as its team defense was last weekend, its helpside defense let too many Bengals through for easy shots last night. On the other hand, the game let some of the kids get some PT. Katt Williams and, I believe, Kira Barra both got their first DI points. Sierra Tapley dropped a couple of treys. Maddy was everywhere and was too unselfish or she, too, would have been in double figures. Maeve is showing me a lot. Very smart rebounder, seems to read her man well at both ends and is pretty mobile. Good hands. Noticed that Tanesha set up in the low post quite a bit in the second half. That may be the option on those nights that Fanny is sub-par, which she and Julie seemed to be last night. The PT did seem to make Katt more comfortable, though Kira seemed sometimes a bit perplexed. But they will both come along. Blanca must be near the top in the nation right now on shooting percentage. She's something like 25 for 31 in her three latest games.

Cim, I have seen your breakdown of the levels of college ball, but I can't find it. NCAA has Divs. I, II and III. Then NAIA has a Div. I and a Div. II, one of them for scholarship schools and one for non-scholarship. I believe UMFK is in the scholarship division. That makes five levels. Then there is the Christian-colleges organization, many of whose members are also in NAIA or NCAA DIII. That's six. And the junior-college organization makes seven. What are the other three? And how do you come to rank NAIA scholarship division as seventh? I remember seeing Dick Barnett playing for Tennessee State in the NAIA national tournament in 1952 in Kansas City -- 32-team tournament played in one week, eight games a day Monday-Wednesday and then four on Thursday and two each on Friday and Saturday -- and he went on to be a fair-to-middling NBA player. Not sure NAIA should stand that low. Massey RPI, which includes all teams from all organizations, often has Vanguard (a religious school in California to which Christiana Geristergiou transferred form Maine) in the top 100 in its overall RPI. Vanguard takes on big-time opponents in exhibitions. When it played Maine at Gorham in 2015, it went on to Storrs to play UConn two days later. Massey counts all games, so every time UConn wins, Vanguard's RPI gets a boost.

There won't be much of a breather for a while. Miami the day after Thanksgiving, then either Maryland (upset by Louisville last week) or Kennesaw two days later. Then Toledo, then Ohio State. Last pre-Christmas home game is MMA on Dec. 5, then off to Dartmouth (not off to its strongest start), Mississippi State, Duke and BC. All on the road. All will be good tests for this young team.

Bob Neal
New Sharon


Bob: Great, informative, insightful, timely,and interesting take as usual Bob.

Last year I posted the same thing after UMFK beat the Maine men in the Pit. I will try to find the list of 10 sometime today.

Why is it that the exhibition games don't count in Maine's Cumulative W-L record or player stats? But games against non D-1 games are counted by UMaine. Non conference games against non D-1 teams are just glorified exhibition games for D-1 teams anyway.

Last years source had D-1, D-a D-3 NAIA 1, NAIA 2, then the 2 divisions of which UMFK was in the 2nd Division.

CIM
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:27 pm

Bob and Dunbar: Go to "What are the different levels of college basketball". THIS, HOWEVER WAS NOT MY ORIGINAL SOURCE FOR LAST YEAR.

They list D-1, D-2, D-3, NAIA 1, NAIA 2 and Junior College. That is six levels so whatever level UMFK is in they are at least 7th as they have a few scholarships available.

I apologize for listing them D-7, However, they are at a maximum in the 7th ranked level of college basketball.

I will change my post to "at least the 7th level of college basketball".

UMFK teams are in the USCAA..United States Collegiate Athletic Association.

Other Maine college in the USCAA along with UMFK
Central Maine Community College
UMAugusta
UMMachias
UMMPresque Isle
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby dunbar » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:07 pm

UMFK is NAIA Division II. You still can't rank each organizations against each other but there's simply no basis for comparison.
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:52 pm

[quote="dunbar"]UMFK is NAIA Division II. You still can't rank each organizations against each other but there's simply no basis for comparison.[/quot

dunbar: OK you win, but if they are NAIA2 they are still 2 spots lower than D-3 at best and their stats should not count period for any D-1 team or individuals.
.
Don't see D-3 Bates, Bowdoin or Colby scheduling UMF. Why doesn't Maine try scheduling them for a game each?

Remember the old state series, oops that was before you were on this earth, instead of UMPI and UMM for the men and UMFK for the women.

Maine would get a better crowd, gate and competition.
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Re: CIM's BLOG:Why do UMaine BB teams count non D-1 game sta

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:49 pm

Or they could have had a inter-squad game and all the players would have got a lot more minutes and much better competition and probably would have drawn better and they could have saved money and play it at the "PIT" like the men did on homecoming.

Teams and matchups..Blue........White
Point guards...........Brouseau.....Saar
Off guards.............Millan.........Sutton
Post Players...........Johnson.......Wadling
Post players...........Williams.......Barra
Off guards.............Carroll.........Rossignol
Off guards.............Tapley..........McVicar
..........................Fogarty both teams

Oh yeah, but they couldn't count the stats.
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