Tourney & Heals Back Door??

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Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby MrBeauxJanglesDeux » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:03 am

Not to vent, but only shed some light on a prelim team in girls class B. With all due respect to the Sacopee Valley girls this season, did they just show us the imbalance of the heals and how they may need to toss a little change into the system. SV has 3 wins total and they are a 2 game sweep of the class C 7th seed NYA, and then a win over the class D 5th seed Seacoast Christian. Those 3 wins helped SV get up to the final playoff spot in girls class B south as they only take 9. If I’m the 10 and 11 seed teams I may be a little discouraged by this, as they both beat SV by 20 points (which was the norm of it wasn’t more for the SV girls this season). If I have this correct, the Cape and Yarmouth girls had 5 and 6 wins total, which included walks of SV, yet a win over a middle of the pack class D team has gotten SV the final spot of the tourney (prelim). SV played 11 of 18 games against Class C or D squads this season while Yarmouth played 3 lower class games and also playing 3 class A games. Cape played 2 class C or lower squads and then played 8 games with class A schools. I’m just looking for answers to how that seems fair to players or schools when I team in Class B is playing half of their games against schools in lower classes and then beating out a team that not only beats them by 20+ but plays almost half its games against teams from an upper class, how are we sending our best teams from a class to the tourney this way. SV clearly wasn’t better than Cape or Yarmouth and that’s proven head to head, and don’t say that’s how the heals work and it’s just who you beat, they only beat a middle of the pack Class D team that had enough wins to make them worth more than a team in SV’s actual class as well as the middle of the pack Class C team they beat twice to secure points while other teams that beat them up were playing Greely, Brunswick and York! GNG for example is the class B top seed, and 2 of its 4 losses are to Greely the #2 team in A, and GNG has to beat Poland and Freeport in 2 of their last 3 games of the season while each was atop the heals in B south to get the top seed, if they throw some more C and D squads on the schedule instead of playing Greely those 2 games wouldn’t have meant much. We did what was best in going to 5 classes, but did they think about conference affiliation situations and or strength of schedule issues before the move. Why not just schedule lower class games and a handful of in class to stay ready to obtain points to get into the tourney? It just doesn’t seem fair to some girls that could get a chance at a playoff game.
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby HoopHopeful » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:21 am

LENNY: CHIME IN!! :) He is the heals Guru
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby interloper » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:22 am

I have 2 comments about this. The heal points were changed three years ago when they went to 5 classes and made the difference between classes much less. I haven't looked at the math to see if this would make a difference but to determine a team's preliminary index would get 25 points by beating a D team, 30 by beating C, 35 for C and 40 for D. When the change was made it went to 34, for D, 36 for C, 38 for B, 40 for A and 42 for AA. The reasoning for the change was that teams would be more likely to play schools in a lower class if the difference was less. The rest of the process remains the same. If the teams that Sacopee beat play predominantly lower class schedules then indeed the Sacopee may not have finished in the tourney.
The second comment comes about because of my age. I remember as do others on this post remember when only 8 teams made the tournament, regardless of the number of the teams in a region and most were more than 20. Teams that would go 12-6 would not get in, so although I don't think SV is necessarily worthy by getting in with only 3 wins, I really don't feel sorry for a team that goes 5-13 or 6-12.
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby MrBeauxJanglesDeux » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:20 pm

Great response and after going back to every class in both north and south in girls only...if you take only the top 8 seeds, you still only get the North A and C with the South B which would have all 8 squads .500 or better...AA girls have a 4-14 as the 6th seed. Parity in all classes for the most part has gone out the door in girls basketball in this case. It also goes to schools that schedule in conference only and with 5 classes you could go from class A to C. SV however goes out of conference in case of the Seacoast game and that’s a D squad, couldn’t (and I know all about travel costs and those budget issues) they put a cap on out of class games to be played? Or once you have played so many then you can only receive x percentage of the points gained from a lower class win?
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby oscar » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:08 pm

I would even go further if either cape or yarm had played sacopees schedule they would have won at least 10 games not 3. So the point isn't really I dont feel sorry for a 6-12 team not making it but the equity of a team in the same class being able to put together a schedule agains D opponents etc.. Where the other school is playing mostly A's and B's
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby ExpoEddie » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:13 pm

AA Boys & girls have agreed to a new format whereby you play every team in the North twice, then add four games. Ditto for the South. All teams in each region, boys & girls had to ok. AD's going to MPA right after this season. Word is that it will be approved. Reality is that the SMAA, WMC, KVC need to go away. The schedule needs to reflect what AA will propose. PHS VS SP or Cheverus VS Scarborough may be lost, but changes have to reflect the new alignments.
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:54 pm

The mpa basketball classification and the formula for making the tournament is like the Maine weather, if you don't like the Maine weather or the mpa classification tourney formula just wait a minute for the weather to change and the mpa classification tourney formula will change again soon because of mpa basktball politics like it always has.

The mpa has had more classification tourney formula move changes then "Allied Vans".

I am old enough so I can remember when the Large schools when there where just L M S the 8 tourney teams were picked by a committee and M S had playoffs in their regions.

Then it went to the heal points,

Then it went to 4 classes LL L M S

Then it went to A B C D

Then it went to AA A B C D

First only 8 teams made the tourney

then they went to 50% of the teams in a class or minimum of 8

then they went to 66.7%

then it went to open tourney everyone in each class made their tourney

then they went back to 2/3's just another name for 66.7%

I say go back to an open tournament then no one should be unhappy of what class they are in or what position they finish in the heal points in their class.

Would encourage more inter class play in the same regions and teams can renew old rivalries. It would be back to local control as far as schedules go because teams wouln't have to worry about making the tournament.

Every one makes it so everyone should be happy. Play prelim rounds until the final 8 teams in each class. Play all games at a neutral site half way between the 2 schools involved.

To be fair can't have any home court advantage.

Remember with the mpa they should be trying to make sure that Maine high school basketball life is fair.

The only way that the current heal point system would ever be fair is that each team plays the same exact schedule as all the other teams in their class. That can never happen:


Last edited by bcbc55 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby oscar » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:57 pm

Sacoppe is a B School in the B tourney they lost(15 games) their B games by -25,-21,-19,-25, -38,-40,-19
C games -11,-30,-13,-21,-27, -15,-18,-16

(3 wins )
2 Class C wins vs. NYA +8,+4 I believe NYA's only wins vs
,multiple D schools
1 class D win +8 Seacoast Cristian
IMO Heals in this case did not get the 9th seed correct.
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby LennyH » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:06 pm

Ok, I am hoping NO ONE is surprised by the fact that the Heal Point system is Unfair/Unbalanced! I have NEVER been able to figure out how a state that prides itself on good ole Maine Common Sense, could possibly thought this made sense. I won't go over the long list of reasons why Heal Points DON'T work and have NEVER worked for determining what teams should qualify for Tournament Play. I for years have argued in favor of the Open Tournament for this very reason. Qualifying for the tournament for those "bubble" teams should not be tied to a formula and system which simply doesn't work to compare teams who don't play the same schedule.

The MPA made it less equitable when it reduced the Index to a 2 point separator, amongst classes, that was just a completely inane move. This and conferences opening up play to schools outside the conference, provided all the incentive in the world to play schools in weaker conferences and lower classes as those wins became almost as valuable. The move made a bad system, even worse.

In this particular case I am guessing it would not have made a difference, the teams S.V. beat totaled 28 wins and the Teams Yarmouth beat totaled 23 wins. The real problem in this case is using a system that rates strength of wins based on how many wins the teams you beat have. It doesn't matter if the wins of the teams you beat were against St. Mary's School for the Blind, you still get credit that they have "wins." This is what happened here.

There is NO DEFENSE for a system that would have S.V. (no offense) in the tournament over Yarmouth or Cape, however, this is what you get when using this flawed system!

(Ready the tired argument - "you only won 5/6 games, stop complaining!")
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Re: Tourney & Heals Back Door??

Postby ExpoEddie » Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:54 pm

Truth is the system favors a few schools up North due to cost of travel to get Classification games. I favor a shot clock, less teams in the tourney not more, a much greater point spread between classes and what AA is proposing. There is god awful teams out there and they do not or should not get to the post season. Raise the bar to play after regular season, not lower standards. AA boys/girls should be 6 teams. Top two go straight to semi's.
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