State of the Game

post info & talk all things boys basketball....

Re: State of the Game

Postby GOOSIE » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:55 pm

Check out Cape, great passing, ball handling, shooting and unselfishness and......Low Post Footwork
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Re: State of the Game

Postby ExpoEddie » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:27 pm

This post has been beaten to a pulp so to speak, but two things emerge as constants: 1. Cost to benefit in AAU, etc. has not been justified uniformly. 2. Jim Ray makes a statement that coaching matters.

Another piece that gets lost with kids not playing in parks, etc. is the notion of playing with older kids. In North Deering I had Tim Curran, Lou Waugh, Macka Foley, Paul Ratliff, Garry Smith, Ed Flaherty all showing me their knowledge. Granted I mostly played when they were short a body, but those experiences helped a lot.
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Re: State of the Game

Postby HolidayInn » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:18 pm

Some good thoughts on this topic. I think we have to consider the expansion of sport options and specialization is impacting level of play in all sports. The multi or three sport athlete is an exception to the rule now. We aren’t seeing many of the unique athletes that can pick up a ball, stick, etc. at the beginning of any season and make it look as she / he has been playing all year.
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Re: State of the Game

Postby bcbc55 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:09 pm

ExpoEddie and HolidayInn: Both good posts and good reasons of why the high school game in Maine is where it is at today.
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Re: State of the Game

Postby Carl Parker » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:30 pm

Bob your constant attack on H.S. coaches is very disapointing and does not help the game you say you love. Very, very sad for a person who did so much for the game and a person who could really help coaches if he was not so condescending.
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Re: State of the Game

Postby bcbc55 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:03 pm

Carl Parker wrote:Bob your constant attack on H.S. coaches is very disapointing and does not help the game you say you love. Very, very sad for a person who did so much for the game and a person who could really help coaches if he was not so condescending.


Carl: "If the truth hurts HS Coaches then that is not my fault" and "if the shoe fits then the HS Coaches should wear them" I just call it like I see it and what I see basketball wise in Maine high school basketball is not very positive overall as it has gone downhill a little each season the past 20 years or so.

It is also very DISAPPOINTING to me that the game that gave me so much and which I have spent my entire life involved with it one way or another is going in the direction that is has been going the past 20 years.

It is also "VERY, VERY SAD" that the high school game is where it is at today and I am not the only veteran basketball person who feels that way either.

I took the criticism of how I coached over the years without crying about it.

If coaches actually read my MBR posts, BDN BLOG and "Off the Rim" column I have offered many suggestions to improve the game and if takes the constant ATTACKING HS COACHES as you call it which is really just negative criticism and evaluation then so be it.

Whenever I have criticized anything or anybody basketball or ADing wise I have always tried to offer positive solutions, It is not my fault if coaches don't take the positive advice.

If some high school coaches can't take the basketball heat then they should get out of the basketball kitchen.

I would help any coach who asked for help, but that does not happen. So how can anybody help coaches if they don't ask for it. So I try to reach and help coaches thru my MBR posts, BDN BLOGS and BDN Column and writings.

In fact, just last week on Tuesday, December 26th I posted on my offtherimbangordailynews BLOG and on MBR how to get to my BLOG a new and different 3 point shooting chart for coaches that has the 12 different ways a team can end up getting 3's and and how to chart who took the threes, how successful they were and how they got the three. All coaches had to do if they were interested in using the chart was to make copies of my BLOG. Wonder how many high school coaches bothered to do just that seeing that many HS coaches are overusing and abusing the 3.

Also, posted on the same BLOG this week on New Year's Day the 12 ways to get threes and listed the 6 highest percentage best ways and the 6 lowest ways to get threes. This again was to help coaches evaluate their 3 point game.

If that isn't trying to help HS coaches, I don't know what is.

I have been called a lot of things over the years, but CONDESCENDING that is a new one.

I don't take your post personally as everyone is entitled to their opinion about my MBR posts, BDN Blogs, column. and writings and how I go about presenting them.

By the way, good win tonight and good luck Saturday against Thornton Academy.
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Re: State of the Game

Postby MidwestMainer » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:46 am

Boys, boys, let's settle down a bit...

You both want what's best for the kids and the game and you've been major influences on basketball and the participating student-athletes' lives in this state. Can we agree on that? Thought so.

Cim, first of all, please don't take this as an attack. Now, as Coach Parker said, you have been an outstanding contributor to the game and the kids you've coached. And you've earned all the accolades bestowed upon you. That said, with all due respect, right now you sound as if you have kind of a know-it-all approach. I don't know that I'd say "condescending", per se, but perhaps you don't have all the answers. Many years have now passed since you've coached at the varsity level and perhaps your approach, while successful at the time, might not work with today's youth. I'm not saying it wouldn't, I just don't know. You're not necessarily privy to the day-to-day on the court and in the locker room. Your observations may be spot on and your tips very helpful to less-experienced coaches. Just don't lump Carl Parker in with the "take my advice and quit ruining my game" motif. I apologize if I'm out of line here but I do agree with Coach Parker in his inference of your tone.

Honest question - are you doing anything on the court in some capacity (be it camps or clinics or whatever) these days? Your knowledge of the game and the fundamental aspects are unassailable. Get out there!
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Re: State of the Game

Postby hoops88 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:21 am

The whole basketball players versus athletes argument shows how long you have been away from the game. I could actually agree with you on this, but in my experience with youth basketball programs, nobody is interested in developing the eventual "basketball players". The kids that eventually grow to 6'7" are slow and unathletic as younger kids. Unless they are freakishly taller than the rest of the kids, they quickly get weeded out of the travel programs, and their development and their interest in the game stops. I too enjoy watching a big guy who can do things down on the blocks after years of developing good post moves. But most of those kids are watching from the stands or home streaming Netflix.

The teams are now made up of quick, athletic, medium-sized and smaller kids. They play 5 out because they have no bigs. And everyone is a gun-slinger, the next Stephen Curry, because listen to the game when a 3-pointer is made. The crowd cheers louder and jumps to their feet, even the announcer may emphasize "Threeee!!". Even the refs get into it with exaggerated touch-down arm signals. The rare Kevin McHale-like post move is greeted with a few cheers by all the old-time big men in the stands.

With the smaller, quicker, more athletic players comes a quicker pace and vigorous defense. That creates more turnovers and poor shot selection resulting in lower scoring.

So the answer? Don't ignore the youth development programs. Or ignore them and continue to watch the product that we now have. The varsity basketball team of almost every Maine high school is set in 6th grade. That is the difference between Maine basketball today and Maine basketball 30 years ago.
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Re: State of the Game

Postby bcbc55 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:04 pm

MidwestMainer wrote:Boys, boys, let's settle down a bit...

You both want what's best for the kids and the game and you've been major influences on basketball and the participating student-athletes' lives in this state. Can we agree on that? Thought so.

Cim, first of all, please don't take this as an attack. Now, as Coach Parker said, you have been an outstanding contributor to the game and the kids you've coached. And you've earned all the accolades bestowed upon you. That said, with all due respect, right now you sound as if you have kind of a know-it-all approach. I don't know that I'd say "condescending", per se, but perhaps you don't have all the answers. Many years have now passed since you've coached at the varsity level and perhaps your approach, while successful at the time, might not work with today's youth. I'm not saying it wouldn't, I just don't know. You're not necessarily privy to the day-to-day on the court and in the locker room. Your observations may be spot on and your tips very helpful to less-experienced coaches. Just don't lump Carl Parker in with the "take my advice and quit ruining my game" motif. I apologize if I'm out of line here but I do agree with Coach Parker in his inference of your tone.

Honest question - are you doing anything on the court in some capacity (be it camps or clinics or whatever) these days? Your knowledge of the game and the fundamental aspects are unassailable. Get out there!


MidwestMainer:

Very thoughtful and helpful post. I do not take it as an attack at all. I can always try to improve my seemingly know it all attitude.

I was only responding to Coach Parker's post and I was not reffering to any particular coach just coaches in general. I see a lot of HS basketball on line now as I am retired and what I see at the high school level is very disturbing for the future of the game. I was considered antiquated back when I was coaching right when I started in 1961 and also when I got done in 200.

When I reffed full time from 2000-14 (I have not been out of the game that long) I did stay involved with the game on the court and actually saw more basketball games then when I was coaching and it was not good back then 3 years ago..

Many High school coaches want players that are coachable yet many themselves are not very coachable as exhibited by the poor attendance at their own MABC Clinics which has been so bad in fact that they cancelled their annual clinic this past fall.

To me it seems that many high school coaches and some college coaches here in Maine don't look to improve as their egos get in the way so that they don't seek out help to improve. They want their players to improve in the off season, but how many coaches work as hard as their players do to improve in the off season?

Most of the off season summer basketball for high school teams are just made up of games not actual practices whose fault is that?

As far as what am I doing on the court today at my age, I still give individual player shooting lessons, but the numbers are down as even as poorly as many players shoot today they evidently are not being helped shooting wise by their coaches and the coaches don't seem to be recommending that their players seek out other sources or ways to get better. Again possibliy ego. I have had several high school players/students taking shooting lessons that they did nit want their coach to know they were taking lessons because their coaches would be upset with the player.

As far as getting out there I have advertised that I am available to do free clinics (accept mileage) yet get no takers.

I still believe that there are few coaches out there that can win big when they don't have the best talent in their class.

How many Coaches don't prepare their teams during the regular season for the difference in tournament play?

Like not having 3 officials for all home games as there is a big difference when they have 3 in the on and done season as the game is called much differently and tighter.

Teams that press all season to get to the tourney can't press effectively when they get their because the court is 10 feet longer and more difficult to cover.

Shooting backgrounds are different and it's much harder to hit the 3's. Look at the scores and shooting percentages in the one and done season compared to the regular season. So "living by the three during the regular season leads to many teams to die by the three come tourney time".

Fatigue plays a factor in shooting to and playing on the 10 foot longer color sized courts brings this on sooner and when the legs go so does the perimeter and foul shooting games.

These are things that most coaches do not adjust to and this has nothing to do with actual coaching in games and practices. So if many coaches do not take these things into consideration then I don't think many are taking the coaching things into consideration as it is much easier to play the game that they see on TV having their non athletic players trying to play the athletic game when they don't have the skill to do it. This is what I call "the easy way out coaching". If you are hot your hot (and you my win) but if your not your not (and you may lose).

To win a state championship you have to win 4 or 5 games and the law of averages and secret to winning a state championship is can your team survive a poor shooting night and still move on?

I consider good coaches at both the high school and college level are the ones that never go below 9-9 and make the tourney every year.They are not the coaches that are 16-2 when they have the talent and go 2-16 when they don't have the talent, but are 9-9 and still make the tourney. Those types of coaches are few and far between today.

There not too many high school or college coaches out there today, if any, that believe that "a good fast athletic basketball team can't make a good slow non athletic team go fast and force them to play the athletic game but a good slow well-coached non athletic team can make a good fast athletic team play slow and beat them playing by controlling the tempo of the game", especially when there is no shot clock in high school basketball.

And that brings me to another problem with the high school game and many of the high school coaches. They must forget that there is no shot clock in Maine high school basketball as most of their teams certainly play like there is one.

They also forget that TV college and NBA basketball is entertainment basketball and high school basketball should be all about "teaching the life lessons that cannot be taught or learned in the high school academic classrooms" These Life Lessons cannot be taught trying to play the game by trying to imitate what they all see on TV basketball, but that is the way that many if not most of the high school coaches let their players play. They let the players decide who shoots, where they shoot from and when they shoot instead of having an offensive system that determines who shoots, where they shoot from and when they shoot.

Now if this sounds like a "Know it all" post then so be it. It is just me telling it like it is or how I see it based on my 73 years in the game as a player, coach, official, rdio/TV color commentator, author and currently writer.

But i did thoroughly enjoy and and tried to take to heart your post and I thank you for that. Just hard to teach n old dog new tricks.
Last edited by bcbc55 on Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: State of the Game

Postby bcbc55 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:50 pm

hoops88 wrote:The whole basketball players versus athletes argument shows how long you have been away from the game. I could actually agree with you on this, but in my experience with youth basketball programs, nobody is interested in developing the eventual "basketball players". The kids that eventually grow to 6'7" are slow and unathletic as younger kids. Unless they are freakishly taller than the rest of the kids, they quickly get weeded out of the travel programs, and their development and their interest in the game stops. I too enjoy watching a big guy who can do things down on the blocks after years of developing good post moves. But most of those kids are watching from the stands or home streaming Netflix.

The teams are now made up of quick, athletic, medium-sized and smaller kids. They play 5 out because they have no bigs. And everyone is a gun-slinger, the next Stephen Curry, because listen to the game when a 3-pointer is made. The crowd cheers louder and jumps to their feet, even the announcer may emphasize "Threeee!!". Even the refs get into it with exaggerated touch-down arm signals. The rare Kevin McHale-like post move is greeted with a few cheers by all the old-time big men in the stands.

With the smaller, quicker, more athletic players comes a quicker pace and vigorous defense. That creates more turnovers and poor shot selection resulting in lower scoring.

So the answer? Don't ignore the youth development programs. Or ignore them and continue to watch the product that we now have. The varsity basketball team of almost every Maine high school is set in 6th grade. That is the difference between Maine basketball today and Maine basketball 30 years ago.


Hoops88: I whole heartily agree with all of your post, including the last paragraph that the varsity basketball team of almost every Maine high school is set in the 6th grade except of one exception where that is not true.

For the private school John Bapst Memorial High School in Bangor from 1987-9000 this was not true.

Bapst did not even have a middle school program as all their players came from surrounding towns of Bangor as they did not have high schools so the towns paid their tuition to Bapst. Bapst didn't know what they had for basketball talent for the incoming freshmen class until they saw them at their first summer basketball session.

Because Bapst is a private college preparatory secondary high school they did not get a lot of athletic players, but they did have very smart kids. They had to play the non athletic game and use the strengths their players intelligence to teach them how to play the game from the shoulders up. Bapst developed players basketball IQ's which allowed for them to make good basketball decisions such as good shot selection, reduced turnovers and personal fouls. Strived to commit less than 12 turnovers per game, shoot 70% from thr line and committ no more than 6 fouls per half.

The coaching staffs taught them that a good fast team cannot make a good slow team play fast, but a good slow team can maje a good fast team play slow" and wih that philosophy They won state championships beating teams that were more athletic then they were. Bapst asked their freshmen and JV coaches to develop just 2 or 3 players from each class that could make a major contribution at the varsity level at the expense of their team's won and lost records, yet they did have winning seasons.

Bapst ended up with basketball players playing basketball against so called athletes playing basketball in most games.The better athletic players went to Bangor or Brewer.

Bapst teams played from the shoulders uo while most of their opponents played from the shoulders down they relied on their bodies and Bapst relied on the strength the players brains.

I am posting this because if a team doesn't have the athletes to play the athletic game of today they can play the high basketball IQ game from the shoulders up which is a very patient slow half-court offense (although Bapst averaged 50 points a game playing the slow ball controlled game) to control the tempo of the game to take away the athleticism of the more athletically talented opponents.....and it was successful many seasons.

It is what I call the "6 inch game". 6 inches up from a players throat to his brain and 6 inches down from the players throat to his heart" and anything below the heart was athleicism being their core and their the legs.

In 13 seasons playing this way Bapst won 3 state championships, were Eastern Maine runners up twice and made the tournament 12 of 13 seasons and the season they didn't make the tourney was 2000 where they had to win the last game of the season to make the tourney and lost and finished 9th. Bapst played in 3 classes during that 13 year period. Class C from 1987-91, class B from 1992-97 and class A from 1998-2000.

In fact. Bapst won the Class D state Champioship in 1980 using this same style of ball control play under Bill MacManus, the former Lawrence of Fairfield AD who just retired.. Bapst is the only high school in Maine to have won a regional title in class D C B and A (in early 40's when it was a catholic school)

Bapst proved that a good fast team cannot make a good slow team play fast, but a good slow team can make a good fast team play slow", plus this system was a great way to "Teach the life lessons that cannot be learned or taught in the academic classrooms".

Since 2000 Bapst has had 4 different coaches and each has gone back to playing basketball like everybody else does and they have only made the tournament twice (once in 2000-01 with a veteran team returning from 2000 in which they got beat by Nokomis as they had gone away from the stye used the previous 13 seasons.) in 17 seasons and have not won a tournament game since the 90's.

Have not seen any team in Eastern Maine or in the entire state for that matter play this way since 2000, but I am certain that it would work even better today as so many teams and coaches are so uptempo, out of control, with poor basketball decision making that leads to poor shot selection with the players determining who shotss, where they shoot from and when they shoot ) instead of an offensive system to do this) increased turnovers, more player control and personal fouls and especially relying on what little athleticism that their players have compared to what they try to imitate on TV.

Bapst teams played the game against themselves and not their opponents, They tried to play as not to beat themselves. In reality they played against the game not opponents which very few if any at the high school or college level here in Maine does.

Bapst did all this without youth programs, without athletic players, without a middle school program, compared to the opponents they played all had youth programs, more athletic players and middle school programs..

I firmly believe it would be easier to use this Bapst system today and be even more successful because most of the teams that they play in North class B are all playing the same TV way trying to imitate what they see on TV.
Last edited by bcbc55 on Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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