Is it too soon to fire Barron

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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby Justabasketballfan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:49 pm

Yes, we'll disagree.
If a coach only has "one or two" full scholarship players on his roster in a season, then he's leaving 8 or 9 scholarships on the table.
If he's giving out 1 or 2 per season (let's say an average of 1.5 per season), then he's got a minimum of 6 full scholarships on the roster at one time, which is actually close to my contention. So, if that's your belief, then we are in agreement.

My experience, and at my age I've got plenty of it, is that most Division 2 programs have a minimum of 7 full scholarships, often 8, on a roster at a given time. Full scholarships to Division 2 programs are worth in the range of $40K to $50K annually. A coach would be foolish not to give them all out. And, he/she would be equally foolish to offer partial scholarships to players who are being offered full rides to other Division 2 programs.

Just trying to share what I know. Believe me, no one I know in coaching is lying to me. I'm not confused. Division 2 coaches have 10 full scholarships to award. That includes everything, tuition/room-board/books, etc. It's the same amount of money, per scholarship, that a Division 1 program can give out.

That's the end of my contribution on this. I know what's right.

And, yes, Go Bears!
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby Rams1998 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:43 pm

They aren't "leaving it on the table". They are awarding the equivalent of 10 scholarships (i.e. 20 1/2 scholarships instead of 10 full boats). They are awarding 10 FULL SCHOLARSHIPS, just not to 10 players.

I'll post this again:
"Division II relies on a partial-scholarship model to administer athletics-based financial aid. Very few of the 110,000 student-athletes competing in Division II will receive a full athletics grant that covers all of their expenses, but most of them will receive some athletics-based financial aid to help them through school. For the rest of their expenses, student-athletes use academic scholarships, student loans and employment earnings just like most other students attending the school."

http://www.ncaa.org/about/division-ii-p ... ship-model
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby dunbar » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Is this really that complicated? Partial scholarships exist on the Division I level in all sports except basketball and FBS football. Rams1998 is correct.
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby Justabasketballfan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:12 am

So D2 basketball coaches hand out 20 half scholarships?
Find me one ... JUST ONE ... Division 2 basketball team in the entire country that has 20 players on its roster.

No one, Dunbar, is saying that partial scholarships don't exist. They do. It's just that most Division 2 players receive full athletic scholarships.

Here are the number of players inn some regional Division 2 programs: Bentley (12), Merrimack (12), New Haven (12) St. A's (14) ... I checked about 40 Division 2 programs. No team had more than 15 players on a roster. The majority 12 or 13. Not everyone on a Division 2 roster is a scholarship player. The end-of-bench types are often walk-ons. It is a universal function for Division 2 programs to give out at least 7 of their 10 full scholarships (often 8). The other two or three are split.

If there are 12 players on a roster, wouldn't it stand to reason that 8 are on full athletic scholarship and 4 are on half scholarship?

I coached AAU basketball for several years. Had a handful of Division 2-level players that were recruited, probably 5 or 6. All received full scholarships ... these were "athletic" scholarships, no portion of which was need- or academic-based.

Here's another point. Many Division 2 programs get Division 1 players transferring down. None of those is leaving a Division 1 full scholarship to take a half scholarship on the Division 2 level.
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby mainejeff » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:14 am

*YAWN*

:roll:
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby Rams1998 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:20 am

by Justabasketballfan » 15 Jan 2019 14:12

So D2 basketball coaches hand out 20 half scholarships?
Find me one ... JUST ONE ... Division 2 basketball team in the entire country that has 20 players on its roster.

No one, Dunbar, is saying that partial scholarships don't exist. They do. It's just that most Division 2 players receive full athletic scholarships.

Here are the number of players inn some regional Division 2 programs: Bentley (12), Merrimack (12), New Haven (12) St. A's (14) ... I checked about 40 Division 2 programs. No team had more than 15 players on a roster. The majority 12 or 13. Not everyone on a Division 2 roster is a scholarship player. The end-of-bench types are often walk-ons. It is a universal function for Division 2 programs to give out at least 7 of their 10 full scholarships (often 8). The other two or three are split.

If there are 12 players on a roster, wouldn't it stand to reason that 8 are on full athletic scholarship and 4 are on half scholarship?

I coached AAU basketball for several years. Had a handful of Division 2-level players that were recruited, probably 5 or 6. All received full scholarships ... these were "athletic" scholarships, no portion of which was need- or academic-based.

Here's another point. Many Division 2 programs get Division 1 players transferring down. None of those is leaving a Division 1 full scholarship to take a half scholarship on the Division 2 level.


I was using those numbers as an example, using simple math. I wasn't implying that they were awarding 20 scholarships. I apologize if it came across that way. I have never said that NO ONE gets a full boat athletic scholarship in D2 - just that they were rare. You are saying the opposite ("most are on full scholarship").

We don't agree on this topic. I've provided plenty of evidence to back up my statement, including the link to the NCAA's own information on D2 scholarships. When you search for that info, you get the same information from various sites. I choose to remain anonymous on this message board, but I have 15 years of college coaching on my resume and the network - across all levels - to go along with it. When this "discussion" started, I reached out to all the coaches I know in D2, just to make sure I wasn't crazy. 100% supported my argument. Your AAU experience has led you to believe differently, and that's ok. It is what it is.

We're way off topic and now boring/annoying everyone else here. I say we drop it. You're never going to change my mind and I'm never going to change yours.
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby rozzie » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:09 pm

I had a D2 coach in a different sport tell me that D2 "scholarships" are the wild, wild west of the NCAA. While Rams is right about the allocation of scholarships, others are right too. That is, a lot of these D2 athletes qualify for other academic, foreign student aid, etc. such that all are "on scholarship", just not athletic scholarships. The coach i was speaking with had 27 players on his roster and 22 weren't paying a dime.

So, in some places, you are both correct.
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby Rams1998 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:32 pm

Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron
Unread postby rozzie » 15 Jan 2019 16:09

I had a D2 coach in a different sport tell me that D2 "scholarships" are the wild, wild west of the NCAA. While Rams is right about the allocation of scholarships, others are right too. That is, a lot of these D2 athletes qualify for other academic, foreign student aid, etc. such that all are "on scholarship", just not athletic scholarships. The coach i was speaking with had 27 players on his roster and 22 weren't paying a dime.

So, in some places, you are both correct.


That's exactly my point. A Division II student-athlete receiving solely athletic scholarship money to cover his/her total cost is extremely rare. A school creatively packaging a kid to cover their costs using athletic money/academic money/grants/financial aid is the norm. That's all I've been trying to say from the beginning.

Anyway, sorry. I said I was going to move on.
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby Justabasketballfan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:42 pm

I said I was going to move on, too.
But, you persist.
A D2 coach has 10 full ATHLETIC Scholarships to award.
Most programs have 14 or fewer players on their rosters.
That means, at a bare minimum, a coach will give out 6 full scholarships and split the other 4 up between 8 players. Yes, 6 full scholarships plus 8 half ones equals 14 players.
Most D2 teams' rosters have fewer than 14 players. About half of them have only 12 players. So, 8 fulls, 4 halfs.
The math is simple.
Does anyone think D2 programs don't award all 10 scholarships? Not if they want to be competitive.
A DII basketball player receiving solely athletic scholarship money to cover all costs is decidedly NOT rare. It's the norm.
All I've been trying to do is to bring some real insight, based on first-hand knowledge, into the discussion.
It's not only my AAU experience that I base this on. It's from relationships, even friendships, with more than a few D2 coaches/administrators, etc.
I'm sorry, Rams1998 that you know so much that you won't accept what goes on in the real world of college basketball.
I'll stop trying to bring reality into your thought process.
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Re: Is it too soon to fire Barron

Postby basketball_guy » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:53 pm

You guys need to create a Divsion 2 basketball thread
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