UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:16 pm

Maine19Fan wrote:55: It is extremely rare that a coach will be informed, at mid-season, that he/she won't be renewed. Only happens when there's improprieties of some sort.
It's best to wait until the full body of work can be viewed before making a decision.

I know this is extremely unlikely (almost as much as you embracing the 3-point shot), but suppose UMaine had a terrific league season, won the AE tournament and went to the NCAA's ... but school administrators took your advice and told Walsh, right now, that he wasn't coming back?

I'm not advocating that Walsh be retains if the team turns in another,say, 7-23 season. But, his departure isn't going to happen, if it does, until the season is over.

To think that will happen ... once again ... shows how little you know about how things work at the college level. Even your sidekick, baskeballguy, understands this situation.


Maine19: The chances of Maine winning the AE tournament means that they have to finish 8th or better and right now they are at the bottom with UNH in Realtimerpi.com RPI rankings and last in Pomery RPI Team rankings of the 9 America East conference teams.

So THAT IS A BIG IF, so I would have no trouble with Maine telling Walsh anytime from now to the end of the season that he is done.

It would be better then firing him and having to pay out the remainder of his contract, which they are not going to do.

By the way I have always been considered an unorthodox basketball person regardless of what basketball level is being discussed, from playing, coaching, officiating.authoring books and my "Off the Rim" Column

P.S. I have no problem with the 3 point shot if it is gotten off inside-outside or dribble penetration.

But I prefer getting my 3's the old fashion way. Power layup and fouled, basket good and one.
Last edited by bcbc55 on Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby Maine19Fan » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:19 pm

basketball_guy: First ... are you that "elder?"
And, please, don't get lumped in with 55, who seems like a nice guy and, at one time, appears to have been a good high school basketball coach. But, he doesn't have any understanding on how things operate in college's modern era, particularly on the D1 level. Sorry if 55 perceives that as a "negative" shot, but that's the way it is.

Yet you, like 55, keep trumpeting what you did 40 years ago. That you played, that you played for winning lower-level programs, etc ... that has absolutely no relevance to our discussions. We've heard of that from you before. No need to ego stoke yourself here.

Maine needs to fund raise, yes. But, it has a far more-urgent need to fund raise for the university as a whole than it does for extra-curricular activities, even ones like D1 basketball.

All you want to do is look at athletics in a vacuum, with no perspective about how what you suggest would affect the university as a whole. Again, let's keep things in perspective. The school is in business primarily to educate. Its athletic programs, no matter what we'd like to think, are very secondary to the school's mission.

Let me ask you: Would the school be better off fund-raising for a university that trimmed 61 academic positions as recently as 3 years ago and which continues to trim its operating budget? Or, would it be better to hire a fund-raiser to try to benefit the athletic program?

I'll go with raising enough money to keep academic programs strong and to maintain the jobs of dedicated and quality professors.

And, what is fund raising for hoops going to do? Obviously, anything more is a benefit. But, would it ever be enough to get the coaching salary into the $250K range and higher, which is what it would take to start attracting a better pool of candidates?

Would it be enough to elevate the assistants' salaries by $30K each, or more, to be competitive with other mid-major assistants' salaries?

Would it be enough to add a third assistant, something every mid-major level program has, another $70K, at least, considering salaries/benefits, etc.

Would it be enough to substantially increase the recruiting budget?

You're talking about a minimum outlay of a minimum of $300K, probably close to $325K. And, that's not one-time shot. That's EVERY year in perpetuity.

That's a pretty sizable nut. And, we're not even talking about, in the era of Title IX, the same improvements have to be made within the women's program. Considering that, you're asking for an ANNUAL increase of over $600K annually, if not more.

And, we haven't even discussed everyone's desire for either a new on-campus facility, or renovations to our existing facilities.

It is nice to have all these pipe dreams, and another thing to expect them to happen.

Your experience, based on what you want to see happen, is based on what happens at Alabama. But, Alabama makes more on TV rights than Maine spends on its entire athletic budget. Alabama's football program, alone, made a PROFIT of over $40 million for the school in the 2016 calendar year. That's BIG TIME college athletics, and has absolutely nothing to do with very low-major level programs like Maine.

Very unfortunately, our program is in the proverbial Catch 22 situation. It needs something more than what it has now to improve. And, I just don't see much happening.
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby basketball_guy » Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:03 pm

It is true that Alabama is making lots of money off its football program as well
as Television revenue. I donate money to the Alabama program myself under these
different programs listed below. A lot people donate but it is to the Athletic programs.

http://www.crimsontidefoundation.org/in ... grams.aspx

You make us appear to be a cash cow in Tuscaloosa and that our budgets are so much
bigger than yours. I admit to livng down in Northwest Florida now. But my heart is with
Maine and it is because I was born there and attended the University of Maine as well.

I don't like what I am seeing up in Orono right now.

Yes, we have the ability to do some different things in terms of raising money,
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/07/spor ... eting.html

But the truth of the matter is and what you do not understand is that Coach Bryant built that program.

Every Sunday he was on his show the Bear Bryant Show selling Golden Flakes potatoe chips
and drinking Coca Cola.

He got a corporate sponsorship from Coca Cola and a Golden Flake potatoe chip franchise. The thing
is the last I checked I believe you have Aroostook County in Maine where they grow a whole lot of Potatoes.
Why hasn't your Athletic Director worked on that relationship to get some of those large potatoe manufacturers
to donate money to the Athletic programs? Can you answer me that question?

You have Wyman Blueberries in Washington County. Why hasn't your AD worked on that relationship to donate
money to the University of Athletic programs?

You have Ciabro in Pittsfield which is one of the largest Construction companies on the East Coast.
Why hasn't your AD worked on them for Corporate donations?

You have WrightExpress in South Portland which is a multimillion Dollar financial service company who
have several large Clients like Exxon. Why hasn't your AD worked on them for Corporate donations?

You have Fidelity Investments who's head is a Maine Native. Ned would be an excellent person to discuss
this situation with. He could probably set up a fund for Maine Athletics. Why hasn't your AD discussed this
situation with them?

The problem you are using the States Budget situation as an excuse for not funding the States premier University
Athletic programs. All that you are doing is using that as an excuse for not hiring a Professional fundraiser who
can get this job done. The AD can not do it all. I am sure he is very busy working on the issues he already has on his plate. It is high time Maine made a decision to get the necessary funding on its own and starts working on
some Corporate sponsorships.

If the AD does not have the time to work on these corporate sponsors then he by definition has to hire a Professional fundraiser. A professional fundraiser will come and evaluate the situation and start working on
a long term funding plan over a period of years, and not get stuck in reacting to state budget cuts.

https://www.ourstate.com/east-carolina- ... -the-core/

http://www.witn.com/content/news/ECU-ge ... 55723.html

Old Dominion follows the ECU blueprint.
https://pilotonline.com/sports/college/ ... 70d3c.html

You are also trying to tie the University's inability to fund their Education programs due to budget cuts as a reason why the AD can not get addtional funding. That is a separate issue from the Athletic departments issues.
It can not be used an Excuse for not doing anything any longer.

I would follow the East Carolina blueprint for funding. They were in a similar situation where Maine is in today.
They made it work. They hired a Professional fundraiser and found a way to make it happen without counting on
the State to budget their programs.

That is what it is going to take to make this happen. The AD can not address the States budget woes. He has enough on his plate just trying to fund what he has. What he has to do is hire a Professional fundraiser who will
work out of state corporations as well as instate corporations to get the necessary funding.

The AD can address the future of Maine athletics and where he wants them to be 10 years down the line and
what it is going to take to get them using private funding and getting a Professional fundraiser(s) to make it happen.

And yes I do believe a Professional fundraiser could do wonders for the both the football and basketball programs
as well as the Womens programs.

The problem is you need forward thinking which is what ECU did. They came up with a plan and made it happen.
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby basketball_guy » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:27 pm

Karlton Creech would do well to bring in Terry Holland as a Consultant, former AD at East Carolina
to advise him because Terry is retired now. Because Terry knows exactly what I am talking about. He
was instrumental in making it happen for East Carolina University.

"We're trying to put ourselves in the conversation with ACC schools here in Virginia. There are a lot of similarities on the path I hope we can imitate."

That path turns intriguing at 7 Saturday night in Greenville, N.C. That's when ECU - whose officials encouraged ODU's start-up whimsy less than a decade ago - and the Monarchs meet for ODU's first game against a Football Bowl Subdivision opponent. It's also the premier of what ECU's former athletic director, Terry Holland, expects will become a regular series, even though ECU will leave Conference USA next year just as ODU enters.

"In my opinion, ODU is a sleeping giant and should be a great regional rival for ECU, regardless of whether or not we are in the same conference," Holland, who retired this year, wrote in an email.
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby basketball_guy » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:04 pm

http://acc.blogs.starnewsonline.com/338 ... c-director

I think Terry Holland could really help Karlton as a Consultant and advisor in bringing UMAINE to a point where
they need to be. He would not have to hire fulltime, just give him a Consuling role to help implement needed
changes.

Karlton would do well to bring him in as a Consultant.
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby Maine19Fan » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:34 pm

The difference is that Maine is NOT needing to get into the conversation with ACC schools.
It just needs to get in the conversation with AE schools.

As for the Alabama situation: Not saying that the Tuscaloosa area is a cash cow. But, U of Alabama most definitely is a big-time cash cow. Do a quick google search to check the financial situation for athletics there. Not hard to do.

Alabama athletics has been a big money maker for decades.

As for corporate sponsors. Just a guess here, but what's the sense of being a corporate sponsor for a losing program that draws 874 to play a home game vs. BU, 579 for a home game vs. Dartmouth, etc. etc.?
Corporate sponsors want something out of the deal, too.
And, you know Maine hasn't chased the corporate sponsors you mentioned ... how?

Maybe you're right. Maybe Maine can chase corporate sponsorships harder that it does. I don't know, so I'll refrain from further comment except to say that if Maine is doing, or is going to do serious fund-raising, it should do so to benefit its academic programs before it worries about its athletic department.

A comparison with Alabama? Maine's entire athletic budget is approximately $19 million. Alabama's is about $160 million. Yes, Alabama's athletic budget is just a little bigger!
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby basketball_guy » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:00 pm

I am not going to address the academic fundraising. I see enough issues with the fund raising for
the athletic department.

Yes, Corporate sponsorships are the way to go for the University of Maine mainly because it is a writeoff
for these Corporations. The IRS allow Charitable contributions for Corporate Sponsors.

You are correct who would support a losing program? But in order to get to a winning program means making
some changes in fundraising. I am not just talking about the basketball program. Football especially could use
some Corporate sponsorship at Maine as well.

Bringing in a professional fundraiser would make a big difference right now.

http://thesportjournal.org/article/outs ... rspective/
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby basketball_guy » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:37 pm

There is an excellent article on this fundraising subject below.
UMAINE needs to study ways to increase their athletic funding. Corporate sponsorships are the only
way I see that happening, mainly because it is a tax writeoff for Corporations.

https://deadspin.com/5976391/sec-school ... your-money

The fund raising issue needs to change at UMAINE. The other issues pertaining to Coaches can only begin to
be addressed after the fund raising issues have been addressed.

SEC Schools Spend $163,931 Per Athlete

College sports are big business, but just how big? In the SEC, on average, schools spend 12 times as much per individual athlete as they do per individual student. Not on the athletes, of course, just around them. There are priorities here. And for most schools, athletic revenue doesn't come close to covering these expenses, requiring universities to dip into general funds to keep their sports programs humming.
As university presidents meet in Texas for their annual conference, the Delta Cost Project at American Institutes for Research today released a study entitled Academic Spending Versus Athletic Spending: Who Wins? That study can be found below, but the shortest answer is: the coaches.
These are the figures that everyone's going to be talking about: how much the athletic conferences spend on their athletes versus their students. (A note on the data. Figures are from 2010, the last year available. Numbers are conference averages and not broken down by individual institutions. Only public universities' spending is available.)
SEC Schools Spend $163,931 Per Athlete, And Other Ways The NCAA Is A Bonfire For Your Money
The obvious takeaway: the SEC is insane. SEC schools spend more than 12 times as much on each athlete as they do on their regular, non-revenue-generating students. They spend 40 percent more than Big Ten schools, and 60 percent more than Pac-10 (now PAC-12) schools. The SEC's nearly $164,000 median cost per athlete is almost twice as much as the FBS average, and four-and-a-half times as much as the median FCS program. Becoming the country's undisputed college football elite conference doesn't come free, and it doesn't come cheap.
And remember, these figures are per athlete, not just per football player. Considering the costs of running a girls volleyball program, feel free to slide the football expenditures upward.
The imbalance isn't just an SEC problem, though. The average D-1 football school is spending 6.7 times more money on each athlete than on each regular student. The question then becomes: where is that money going? Those athletes sure as hell aren't getting paid.
SEC Schools Spend $163,931 Per Athlete, And Other Ways The NCAA Is A Bonfire For Your Money
The biggest single outlay, at FBS, FCS, and non-football schools, is compensation for athletic department staff. (Each of these people has to get a paycheck.) The study notes that fully half or more of that compensation is for coaches—at the biggest programs, coaches' salaries can make up 20-25 percent of the total athletics budget. That's more than the schools spend on facilities and equipment, and much more than they spend on the actual financial aid given to the student-athletes.
One more chart. This time, a breakdown of athletic departments' sources of revenue:
SEC Schools Spend $163,931 Per Athlete, And Other Ways The NCAA Is A Bonfire For Your Money
At FBS programs, funding largely comes from the Big Three: ticket sales, TV/bowl revenue, and donations combine to make up two-thirds of the average program's revenue. But perhaps we should make that the Big Four—institutional support and student fees combine to cover nearly 18 percent of the average program's intake. This puts the lie to the concept that most schools' athletic programs are self-supporting. The study finds that less than a quarter of FBS programs generated more money than they spent, with the difference coming directly from university subsidies and fees paid by all enrolled students. If you're a college student, odds are good you're directly paying for your school's teams.
Conclusions—the study has a few. Does an expensive, winning program actually benefit a university? Athletic success, especially in football, produces a yearlong bump in the number of applications, though the quality of the students admitted doesn't necessarily go up. If alumni donations increase—and various studies disagree on whether they do—the giving is usually confined to the athletic program.
The study notes that athletic spending grew twice as fast as academic spending over a five-year period, even in a nationwide economic downturn, and as conferences grasp the value of realignment and TV deals, there's no reason the trend shouldn't continue.
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby Maine19Fan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:58 am

basketball_guy: I prefer to discuss basketball.

But, I will say that what you advocate has surely been considered by Maine. The school already has people in fund-raising positions. I did find recent financial report for Maine athletics that shows the school received nearly $1.3 million in "contributions" from outside sources: corporate sponsors, alums, etc.

Yes, college sports is indeed a big business, but only at the highest level.

At Maine, it's a mom-and-pop operation.

You have just wonderful ideas that sound good in theory, but likely aren't going to work in real life.

I'll ask again? Do you think your fund-raising ideas are unique? That these things haven't been considered by Maine administrators? That some of what you advocate isn't already in place?
Do you actually know what Maine does in terms of trying to raise additional funds for athletic?

And, I'll repeat this contention: Raising funds for a financially struggling university are immeasurably more important than trying to secure funds for its athletic program.
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Re: UMaine men 1-11 @ Columbia 1-10 on 12/30/17

Postby basketball_guy » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:58 am

I have already been a victim of their budget cuts in the Fall of 1978 when they cut the JV program in the middle
of the Season. There were 12 of us who were directly affected, and none of us have forgotten that issue. We were
all kids from Maine as well at the time.

I can not speak to the current situation, but it is rather obvious if the football program needs to play two FBS
opponents a year and the basketball team has to play the likes of Georgetown and Texas Tech because they get
a payback by playing these teams in both football and basketball that they are still having funding issues.

Obviously, you don't go out of your way to play teams you know you are going to lose to.
So, I don't think they are addressing the funding issues as they should be even at this point.

They need a professional fund raiser. I agree though I will let Karlton Creech stew on this for a while. Terry
Holland could help him with these issues as an advisor if nothing more.

But before we talk about Changes in Coaching staffs this funding issue does have to be brought to the attention
of the Board.

I will leave it at that and prefer not to discuss this issue any longer.
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