Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby Maine19Fan » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:38 pm

Answer to 55's "quiz."

The answer is No. 1. The best shot is a dunk.

Second-best shot, proven by analytics, is a wide-open three. Higher point-efficiency on that shot than any other than a dunk/wide-open layup.

The "power layup," (a term that only 55 knows the meaning of) is, I'm guessing, a shot in the post in which the post player goes up strong directly against a defensive presence. This has been proven to be a far worst shot in terms of producing points than a wide-open three pointer.

And, yes, every coach treats every game as a must-win game, at least on the college level where losing records cost coaches their jobs.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:51 pm

Maine19Fan wrote:Answer to 55's "quiz."

The answer is No. 1. The best shot is a dunk.

Second-best shot, proven by analytics, is a wide-open three. Higher point-efficiency on that shot than any other than a dunk/wide-open layup.

The "power layup," (a term that only 55 knows the meaning of) is, I'm guessing, a shot in the post in which the post player goes up strong directly against a defensive presence. This has been proven to be a far worst shot in terms of producing points than a wide-open three pointer.

And, yes, every coach treats every game as a must-win game, at least on the college level where losing records cost coaches their jobs.


19: My definition of a power layup is a stationary shot from the block to the rim. Player with ball uses ball fakes. head fakes or combinations of as defenders most of the time leave their feet when there are fakes trying to block the shot. So the defender is in a useless position when they leave their feet when guarding a player with the ball leaves his feet.

Also, done correctly power layups also leads to the old fashion 3's. Good basket and one!!

College coaches may treat them as must win games, but many sure do not coach to survive poor shooting nights especially from beyond the arc. Many just keep throwin up the 3's and HOPE they go in.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby Maine19Fan » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:09 pm

"Many (college coaches) sure do not coach to survive poor shooting nights especially from behind the arc," says bcbc55.

Of course, he thinks he knows more about coaching than Division 1 college coaches.

A former coach at a mediocre level of high school basketball knows more about coaching than D1 coaches!!

Yeah, that sounds right.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:42 pm

Maine19Fan wrote:"Many (college coaches) sure do not coach to survive poor shooting nights especially from behind the arc," says bcbc55.

Of course, he thinks he knows more about coaching than Division 1 college coaches.

A former coach at a mediocre level of high school basketball knows more about coaching than D1 coaches!!

Yeah, that sounds right.


19: All you have to do is watch the games and why do you think UMaine men are 1-11 against D-1 teams, they have nothing but the 3 point offense and make no adjustments when the 3's are not a "fallen", they just keep living and dying by the threes.

I tried to be positive in their last loss to UMass, when they where 1-15 from beyond the arc and down 40-15 at the half only to only to shoot 6 attempted 3's and make 4 in the second half when Maine outscored UMass 48-34.

I tried to give them credit for not taking the over use of 3's for one of the reasons for their comeback, but you said it was because UMass was so far ahead and the comeback was because they were playing against the UMass subs and also because of the big lead UMass so that hey didn't play with much incentive.

Maine only dressed 12 players for that game and they always use 10 or more player per game so the comeback was bench against bench right? You say that and I say they stopped shooting the 3's for the comeback to lose by 11 74-63 as they looked for each other instead of looking for the 3's all the time.

What did you think abut my post about how UMaine men got their 3's off versus Central Connecticut State? Any response?.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby LennyH » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:50 pm

Maine19Fan wrote:"......

A former coach at a mediocre level of high school basketball knows more about coaching than D1 coaches!!

Yeah, that sounds right.


I have a number of things which strike me as odd about the quantity, quality and tone of M19F's posts, I will get to that in another post shortly. However, I did want to directly address this quote.

As a young Varsity Coach in the 90's I was fervent about expanding my knowledge of the game and therefore attended as many "Coaching Clinics" as I could. I thought anything a successful "D1 Coach" had to offer would give me great insight to the game I loved. I remember sitting with my Nike Notebook eager to take notes when Bobby Cremins, the highly successful coach of Georgia Tech, took to the podium to give a lecture on 1/2 court Zone Defenses. What followed was an hour of incoherent ramblings that left me thinking, "how the hell does this guy tie his own shoes, let alone run a DI Basketball program! Trust me, I sat through more of those types of lecture/clinics over the years than I did being enlighten and informed. (although there were certainly some notables in that area)

I am also reminded of something a different Bobby (Mr. Knight) said to a group of us coaches who had their teams attending his team camp at IU. (yeah my bunch of Mainahs, drove in two vans and two days to the Mid-West for that experience) Coach Knight made it really clear - some of the best and brightest minds he ever encountered in basketball came from some of the small high school coaches he was friends with. In Coach Knight's mind we ALL could learn just as much from each other as we could from him.

The reality is the road to Coaching at the DI level has all kinds of pathways, however, it does not include an exclusivity on understanding the game of basketball and having theories on what works and doesn't work.

I have a "theory" as to why M19F feels the need to be so defensive (or should I say offensive) to anyone who disparages the current style of play with the Maine's program at UMaine. Very curious indeed!
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby bcbc55 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:10 am

LennyH wrote:
Maine19Fan wrote:"......

A former coach at a mediocre level of high school basketball knows more about coaching than D1 coaches!!

Yeah, that sounds right.


I have a number of things which strike me as odd about the quantity, quality and tone of M19F's posts, I will get to that in another post shortly. However, I did want to directly address this quote.

As a young Varsity Coach in the 90's I was fervent about expanding my knowledge of the game and therefore attended as many "Coaching Clinics" as I could. I thought anything a successful "D1 Coach" had to offer would give me great insight to the game I loved. I remember sitting with my Nike Notebook eager to take notes when Bobby Cremins, the highly successful coach of Georgia Tech, took to the podium to give a lecture on 1/2 court Zone Defenses. What followed was an hour of incoherent ramblings that left me thinking, "how the hell does this guy tie his own shoes, let alone run a DI Basketball program! Trust me, I sat through more of those types of lecture/clinics over the years than I did being enlighten and informed. (although there were certainly some notables in that area)

I am also reminded of something a different Bobby (Mr. Knight) said to a group of us coaches who had their teams attending his team camp at IU. (yeah my bunch of Mainahs, drove in two vans and two days to the Mid-West for that experience) Coach Knight made it really clear - some of the best and brightest minds he ever encountered in basketball came from some of the small high school coaches he was friends with. In Coach Knight's mind we ALL could learn just as much from each other as we could from him.

The reality is the road to Coaching at the DI level has all kinds of pathways, however, it does not include an exclusivity on understanding the game of basketball and having theories on what works and doesn't work.

I have a "theory" as to why M19F feels the need to be so defensive (or should I say offensive) to anyone who disparages the current style of play with the Maine's program at UMaine. Very curious indeed!


Lenny: Thanks for bringing something to my old senior citizen senile mind that I had forgotten all about. Funny you should mention that as that struck a real live nerve, I went through the same things many times when listening to some D-1 big time college coaches lecture. I even had E.M. Newton Albama's head basketball coach at a clinic at the Old Bangor Auditorium after he gave his lecture and I followed him directly afterwards with mine and after my presentation he told me that he was sure that he got more out of my presentation then I got out of his as did the other attendees he said. He also said if we swapped jobs that it would be easier for me to do a good job at Alabama then he could do at the high school where I was coaching. Very interesting statements by a very humble and gentlemen of a college D-1 coach.

Thanksfor taking the time for bringing this up. Excellent points and very helpful in my debate with M19F.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby Maine19Fan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:40 am

Love to hear that theory about why I "offend" bcbc55. Could it be because almost nothing he posts has any perspective, most of it is of the unsupported theory variety and that just about any comments he makes about Maine basketball shows how little he knows about the sport at the D1 level.

Yeah, there are a few h.s. coaches who are great strategists. Bob Hurley Sr. comes to mind. But, by nature, they are all classroom teachers (or school administrators) first. The majority of their professional duties require far more time than they can put into basketball. To h.s. coaches, basketball is a part-time advocation. I'm sure 55 believed he was a "basketball professional." In truth, the time he spent related to basketball was a fraction of the commitment required by FULL-TIME D1 coaches.

55 might (and, II did say "Might") have been a decent strategist when he coached against decidedly mediocre competition during his coaching days from a different era. And, I'll venture to say that what he coached that worked at the h.s. level absolutely would not work at the D1 level in today's game. He has constantly shown a tendency to avoid change, to come into the modern era.

There's a reason why college coaches wouldn't use the strategies recommended by 55: Because they wouldn't work!

College coaches are universally gracious when giving clinics. If they demeaned the audience, those h.s. coaches who flock to those clinics (and, pay big money to do so) wouldn't ever attend. Does anyone really think that E.M. Newton truly believed he learned something about basketball from 55's presentation?

Here's my defense for Maine doing what it does on the court:

- Lack of talent relative to opponents. Thus, the poor record. It is all about talent on the college level. Does anyone dispute the contention that Maine's roster isn't exactly bursting with talent that matches up favorably to opponents? It does what an intelligent coach thinks is the best way to be competitive.

And, if h.s. coaches could be successful at the D1 level, why are there almost none that ever make that transition? Why did 55 not make that transition, despite his very obvious belief that he could do a better job at Maine than anyone else?

It's not only that college coaches know more about basketball, strategy, etc., but because there's so much more to the job than just X's and O's ....
Recruiting is a major aspect. Does anyone think 55 could recruit? He's told us he'd, basically, only recruit Maine players. Yeah, that would work!
There's also far more extensive scouting, film viewing and game-planning that goes on at the college level.
There's also extensive public relations' work, i.e., dealing with media on an almost daily basis, as well as with alums and program reporters.
There are a lot more off-court issues that need to be dealt with. There's scheduling, there's figuring out ways to operate on a lack of resources (at Maine, anyway), etc., etc.

And, there's the constant criticism from know-nothing fans. Imagine 55 having to take the heat from "fans" like himself?
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby LennyH » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:48 am

Maine19Fan wrote:....College coaches are universally gracious when giving clinics. If they demeaned the audience, those h.s. coaches who flock to those clinics (and, pay big money to do so) wouldn't ever attend...

- Lack of talent relative to opponents. Thus, the poor record. It is all about talent on the college level. Does anyone dispute the contention that Maine's roster isn't exactly bursting with talent .....

...And, if h.s. coaches could be successful at the D1 level, why are there almost none that ever make that transition?...

It's not only that college coaches know more about basketball, strategy, etc., but because there's so much more to the job than just X's and O's ....Recruiting is a major aspect. ...

There's also extensive public relations' work, i.e., dealing with media on an almost daily basis, as well as with alums and program reporters. There are a lot more off-court issues that need to be dealt with. And, there's the constant criticism from know-nothing fans. Imagine 55 having to take the heat from "fans" like himself?


Sooooo - Contradict yourself much??

I didn't say anything about sounding "gracious" I said there were many lacking the ability to present themselves in any manner of expertise you seem to think they all possess - this is done so the audience feels good about themselves??? I would have felt a lot better about spending money for what I was looking for - I guess I am odd that way, I like to get what I pay for.

Also, so DI coaches who praise a high school coach for their knowledge are simply lying? Is this what they have told you personally? I would have liked to been in the room when you told Coach Knight he was a liar...while I recognize it never happened, it would have been enjoyable to watch the response...

Your comments about the need for talent and the importance of recruiting further supports the argument that D1 coaches are not the "Holders" of all that is Basketball expertise. Without question the #1 Skill a College coach must possess is the ability to recruit and keep players. (it was clearly the only reason Cremins was successful)

However, unlike 99% of most high school coaches, who must play the hand they are dealt, college coaches have the ability to go find the players they think will help them succeed. Excuse making for a college coach playing a certain style of play because they lack "talent" is like forgiving the chef for the bad meal he just served you.

H.S. coaches "almost "none" ever make the transition to the DI level"? A quick Google search shows in 2014 that 1/3 of the coaches in the NCAA Tournament once coached High School ball, so much for almost "none."

Finally in another post somewhere, you state that NO D1 coach (of the Dozen's you personally know) would give a "Crapola" about what is said by media and fans - here, you bemoan the off court issues a D1 coach must deal with from media and "no-nothing" fans. Which is it, you really can't have it both ways?

Listen, I understand Cim is one stubborn SOB, who is entrenched in his beliefs about hoops. I have disagreed with him about a variety of topics over the years here on MBR and in the end we usually agree to disagree on those topics. Usually, I felt like I presented enough "real" evidence so that most intelligent readers figure out who makes the most sense. It's fun debating the topics and let's face it - in the end let's keep perspective about what we are discussing and where we are doing it. You talk in the same extremes you give Cim a hard time about. Again, I have a theory as to why....
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby Maine19Fan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:37 am

Just because you perceived that a coach delivered a poor presentation at a clinic doesn't mean he/she doesn't know basketball.

You're talking an extremely small situation and basing your entire opinion of a coach on that. Not a great representative sample.

I'd say that Bobby Cremins must have presented himself pretty well elsewhere since he recruited some of the best players to ever play at Georgia Tech.

And, yes, college coaches that "praise" a h.s. coach for their knowledge are indeed being gracious. They want these coaches to come back to future clinics.

How do I know that they do this? I've attended my share of clinics. And, I know more than my share of D1 coaches/assistants. They get paid very good money to do clinics. The last thing they want to do is to alienate the audience. Of course they're gracious.

You are right about one thing: The ability to recruit and retain players is an extremely important aspect in the coaching equation.

Our discussion is centered around Maine basketball. Please tell me about how "easy" it is to recruit/retain at Maine?

22 of the 68 coaches in the 2014 tournament did indeed once coach at the h.s. level. And, they all very quickly got into higher levels: JC, assistant's position etc. The better way to have said is that no coach goes directly from a h.s. job to a head coaching job in college. There is ALWAYS a long transition.
And, our "favorite" coach in question, ol' 55, NEVER could have been a D1 head coach.

The vast majority of coaches I know don't read message boards, and definitely don't read meaningless blogs that appear in a local newspaper.

But, they do hear the criticism. People call the offices, etc.; they deal with the public in a variety of settings.
Here's a great example. I was on the Michigan campus seven or eight years ago and tried to visit its coach, John Beilein, who I know personally.
I didn't call ahead, didn't let John know I was in the area.
I could not get into the basketball facility where his office is located.
So, I did not pursue the visit further. But, I called him the next day to say I tried to stop in.
His response was that they kept the doors to the facility locked, because to do otherwise would result in countless fans walking in off the street to ... the term he used ... "arm-chair quarterback" what he was doing. His other thought was so many people would want to stop in just to talk basketball that he'd have no time to get anything done.
Believe me, coaches know when they're getting heat from fans. They don't have to read the wacko message boards and foolish postings in a meaningless blog.

Anyway, I have nothing personal against ol' 55. Like I said, I don't know him. Never met him, and don't really want to meet him.
What I do know, though, is that he has a huge ego, and loves the self-gratification of posting about himself in these forums, etc. And, that he knows, based on his ramblings, very little about the workings of basketball above the high school level. His posts about the sport are mostly "theories" that have no supportive evidence. He throws out numbers, uses them for his critiques, but offers no perspective on those numbers.

My reason for disagreeing with 55? It's all about reading posts from about basketball that are just aren't rooted in reality. I'm passionate about basketball, obviously. Just trying to present the other side ... the real world as I see it. You can agree, or disagree. That's the purpose of a forum like this. Since I came aboard a few weeks ago, 55 isn't the only poster I've disagreed with. There are even some, though, that I do agree with!

And, I would love to hear your theory about why I tend to give 55 a hard time. So, have at it!
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Re: Maine19Fan: Your real name and bb experience please.

Postby LennyH » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:28 pm

"This is what I said, but this is what I meant" might be a good way for you to sign off on your postings... :D :D

Since you personally know so many coaches (which I believe you do) ask them if they believe there are High School coaches who possess in depth knowledge of the game of basketball. I know you don't believe bc55 does, but your comment was "like a HS coach at a mediocre school (not sure how you came up with that definition) knows more about basketball than...." Of Course they are Gracious, but you can be gracious without lying.

Not sure how you get, I am presenting a "extremely small situation" as I said I went to MANY clinics and saw MANY presenters and there were far more than one who "presented' themselves as lacking in expertise. I disagree, if you can't come off as organized, well thought out and insightful in an hour presentation, you are lacking as a coach.

I never said Cremins couldn't recruit - he was NYC bred and for a while had a pipeline to some of the best NYC area players, when he got "old" and not quite as connected, the pipe line dried up and so did his career.

You said "almost none (referencing HS coaches) go on to coach at DI" - when presented with evidence contrary, you counter what I meant was "none go directly to DI Coaching" - reality check, find me the DI Coach whose first coaching job was a D1 coach? I am guessing almost NONE started their careers as the head coach. They all have a path and clearly for a number of them High School was the route.

You said "College coaches don't pay attention to what is said about them but what you meant was they don't read message boards or blogs in newspapers but they do hear criticism. Let's face it all forms of media from newspapers, to TV and yes message boards and public forums get back to the coaches. Whether they read it themselves (which I bet more do than would EVER ADMIT to you or anyone else) they hear it, so therefore, yes it does matter.

Here is the deal - When a coach applies to be the head coach at UMaine - do they come in not knowing the obstacles? Do you think Coach Walsh was oblivious to these? I am 100% sure he believe he had a plan that would allow him to overcome these obstacles and guess what, right now he is being proven WRONG. He did recruit some talent, however, he was unable to retain it? Why??

While his current coaching strategy might very well be his only hope for any chance at winning, (the point I believe you are arguing with bcbc) the reality is he is not winning because his plan has failed. All Mainah's are looking for is a team that is competitive and maybe challenge for a conference title. The record speaks for itself and for those who choose DI Coaching as their profession this can only lead to one conclusion.

Finally this comment of yours made me really chuckle "They don't have to read the wacko message boards.." Well, by the counter you have posted 123 times in less then two full weeks - which makes me wonder who the real "wacko" is? However, I am sure when I check back in, you will tell me "what you really meant by that comment.." :lol: :lol:
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