Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches stat

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Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches stat

Postby bcbc55 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:19 pm

Please go to my post reply on "Moss watch" for the statistics for UMaine men' s 10 basketball coaches since 1949-50. "Figures don't lie".

This shows that all different things that have been tried, using just Maine kids, using just out of staters and international players, combinations of and 9 out of state coaches and 1 originally from Maine in state coach.

Guess which was the most successfulcoaching statistics. Read the post and stats and it explains it all.

Most success has come with using Maine kids with a Maine coach.

"Again, "Figures (stats) don't lie, but liars can figure".

I'll bet on the stats and the percentages that are produced by those figures. Maine is not going to win regardless of what they do coach or player wise, so let's do it with Maine kids. After all, it is a land-grant-state-public supportd by taxpayers dollars university not a private institution. Keep the scholarship and colleges salaries here in Maine at least we might be encouraging the better Mainers to come to Maine, be it coaches or players.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby mainah57 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:49 pm

I'll bet on the stats and the percentages that are produced by those figures. Maine is not going to win regardless of what they do coach or player wise, so let's do it with Maine kids. After all, it is a land-grant-state-public supportd by taxpayers dollars university not a private institution. Keep the scholarship and colleges salaries here in Maine at least we might be encouraging the better Mainers to come to Maine, be it coaches or players.


So, basically you're just saying that the MBB program is never going to be a winning one, so let's just throw in the towel and bring in a bunch of Maine kids? If that's the case (truly no hope of winning), why continue the program at all?

As for keeping scholarships and salaries with Mainers... I really don't see it that way (and it kind of is a little disturbing to me that folks feel this way). You are okay with your taxpayer dollars going towards supporting a Maine student-athlete getting an education, but less so if that student-athlete is not from Maine? Maine is not going to succeed by cutting itself off from the rest of the country/world, and that includes its university athletic programs as well.

It has been great to see the recent success that the WBB program has found from some of the innovative approaches that have been taken by the coaching staff (this applies to many facets of the program, not just the recruiting). I'm not totally blaming Walsh for the MBB, as I think he's in a tough spot - but I don't by any means think the secret to the MBB program's success is to just bring in Mainers. And if we don't think the program has any chance of succeeding (so let's just screw it and bring in the Mainers!), then what's the point at all??
Last edited by mainah57 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:22 am

mainah57 wrote:
I'll bet on the stats and the percentages that are produced by those figures. Maine is not going to win regardless of what they do coach or player wise, so let's do it with Maine kids. After all, it is a land-grant-state-public supportd by taxpayers dollars university not a private institution. Keep the scholarship and colleges salaries here in Maine at least we might be encouraging the better Mainers to come to Maine, be it coaches or players.


So, basically you're just saying that the MBB program is never going to be a winning one, so let's just throw in the towel and bring in a bunch of Maine kids? If that's the case (truly no hope of winning), why continue the program at all?

As for keeping scholarships and salaries with Mainers... I really don't see it that way (and it kind of is a little disturbing to me that folks feel this way). You are okay with your taxpayer dollars going towards supporting a Maine student-athlete getting an education, but less so if that student-athlete is not from Maine? Maine is not

going to succeed by cutting itself off from the rest of the country/world, and that includes its university athletic programs as well.

It has been great to see the recent success of that the WBB program has found from some of the innovative approaches that have been taken by the coaching staff (this applies to many facets of the program, not just the recruiting). I'm not totally blaming Walsh for the MBB, as I think he's in a tough spot - but I don't by any means think the secret to the MBB program's success is to just bring in Mainers. And if we don't think the program has any chance of succeeding (so let's just screw it and bring in the Mainers!), then what's the point at all??


mainah57: The difference between men's and women's college game is that the men are more athletic and the women are more basketball players playing basketball as the men are athletes trying to play basketball.

So coaching has more affect on the women's game then the mens.

The women are not as quick, strong, as good leapers, etc. Women's game is played from the shoulders up more then the men who play more from the shoulders down.
The women's game is the way many old timers remember the game the way it should be. College D-1 and the NBA (NOT BASKETBALL ANYMORE) are just entertainment at the major level of D-1.

UMaine hiring an oos (out-of-state) AD who hires oos head coaches who hire oos assistant coaches who recruit oos players is the definition of basketball insanity based on Maine's men's basketball history. Doing the same thing over and over and over and over again and expecting different results is the definition if insanity. How has that worked out the past 7 years and especially the past 3 plus years of 21-82 and 13-82 versus D-1 competiton.

You can ignore history all you want but you and the UMaine people who hire the out-of-staters are so smart you and they don't have to look at history. Must be nice to be so basketball smart that history is not important. I know many of you think us old Maine timers are just "hicks living in the sticks". But we are old enough to know how important history is to the making good decisions for the future of anything.

But you are not alone. All you posters that think myself and supporters about UMaine men's basketball are not with it then all that is is a difference of opinion. We have history and facts on our side, what do you have? Just your opinions. Maine men's basketball can never be successful in D-1 basketball because of the reasons that they haven't been successful expect when Maine coach (Chapplle) used Maine kids and his Coach Brian McCall used Maine kids and Coach John Giannini used some Mainers in his 8 years stint when he was so succesful.

Reasons:

1. location, location, location, location
2. Past losing history years 43 out of 68 years losing seasons
3. Not using a Maine coach and Maine players
4. Not having a decent on campus basketball facility
5. Only reasons players from out-of-state come to Maine is becsue they are not good enough to go to another D-1 school or they have basketball baggae.
6. OF those that do come the better players have transferred out (how about 11 in the past 2 seasons)
7. Most donlt seem to be cochable or maybe that is because they are not and have not been coached properly for their talent level and their opponents levels
8. I could go on and on,but you wouldn't listen nor your friends that support you and do not to go with more Mainers. How many Mainers have transferred out the last 7 years (when we had 11 in the past 2 season for the men)
9. What is that old sayin? "When the going gets tough the tough get going" Yeah right,in UMaine men's basketball history it has been right out the door just like their coaches do when they move on an use Maine as a career stepping stone by moving to a better job or get fired.
10. Would you rather have the Maine players who are tough enough to not quit and leave when things don't go well or would you rather have ones that see it through because of the importance of loyalty a important quality value to have and most true Mainers have that.

You have your opinions and reasons for them and I have mine. Opinions are like noses everyone has one".

Could also be "Different basketball strokes for different basketball folks" or "What floats your basketball boat doesn;t float my basketball boat".

However, my opinions are based on 73 years in the game as a player, coach, official, TV/Radio basketball color commentator, author of 2 basketball books, current basketball writer for the BDN, fan and basing my opinion on the history on facts of the Maine men's basketball program over 68 year after following the Maine men's basketball program for 68 years. What do you and the people here on MBR that disagree wih me on this topic base your/their opinions on?

Also, I can support a losing program that does it the right way. 1. Using Maine kids 2. with a Maine coach .3. Recruits the correct way for Mainers to go to prep school 4. offer the decisions made in the recruiting of the Mainer is in the best interest of the Maine kids and their parents and not just Maine's interests 5. That the coach is
not looking to use the Maine job as a stepping stone 6 the coach knows how to coach players/team when he does not have the talent available and how to take away the athleticism of his America east Opponents that have more athletic talent then Maine does 7. The recruits first good human beings, good students who want to graduate from Maine and not just go there for basketball 3. basketball players who play basketball and not worry about their athleticism 8. Most important of all the coach should ut "Teaching the life lessons that cannot be taught in the academic classrooms". After all winning isn't the only things there are more important things to gain from college athletics.

ONLY TWO PLAYERS FROM THE UMAINE MEN'S PROGRAM HAVE EVER PLAYED IN THE NBA. RICK CARLISE FROM NEW YORK WHO TRANSFERRED TO VIRGINA AFTER HIS SOPHOMORE TO PLAY WITH RALPH SAMPSON AND 6'10" JEFF CROSS FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE AFTER HE GRADUATED FROM MAINE AND OH YES, THEY BOTH HAPPENED TO BE RECRUITED AND PLAYED FOR SKIP CHAPPELLE.

P.S. One question answera this all. WHY WOULD ANY GOOD BASKETBALL PLAYER WITH D-1 TALENT WANT TO COME TO MAINE?
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby Maine19Fan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:42 am

Could not agree more with Mainah57.
Bcbc55 advocates playing almost exclusively with "Maine" scholastic players.
But, how about the women's program? It seems to be doing pretty well with five foreign players on this year's roster (and, next to no contributions from state-based players), with more foreign-born contributors in past years.
Based on the fact that very few players from our state are succeeding at the Div 1 level right now would seem to indicate that filling a roster mostly with Maine-based players, just to have local players in the program, would doom the team to worse than what we've seen in recent years.
It's nice to advocate being provincial. Sounds good in theory.
But, let's put it to this test.
Please identify a minimum of eight players with Maine scholastic connections over the past four years who could come together and be a successful team in America East.

Our favorite program is, to use a well-work phrase, between a rock and a hard place.
Locals don't want to stay home.
The school's location/weather is a detriment to bringing in players from elsewhere.

I think some coach needs to think outside the box, so to speak, in terms of turning the program around ... whether it's through transfers and/or foreign players. I'm not saying that Walsh is the guy for that job, although this year's team does appear to have the most talent of any of his previous squads.
I'm just saying that to limit the make up of a roster exclusively to players from our state, which traditionally produces very few real D-! players, doesn't sound like a sound idea.

It sounds like a good topic for debate. I wonder how others feel.

Here's the other issue: Money.
It would be nice if Maine's financial commitment to men's basketball even came close to equaling other America East teams.
I know money is a university-wide issue, but consider this:
- Lowest head coach's salary in the league by at least 50%.
- The program only has two full-time assistants, while every other team in the league has three full-time assistants. One less body limits recruiting opportunities.
- A strong guess is that the recruiting budget is also limited, compared to other programs in the league which means Maine coaches don't get on the road as often for wide-spread AAU play.

I don't know how to solve the issues. Just pointing them out.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:51 pm

The women's college game (as well as th WNBA) is basketball players playing basketball, not athletes trying to play basketball. That is why the Maine women are doing better then the men. More coaching is done in the women's game. The women physically just cannot play the athletic game the men play. they just are not quick, fast, strong, big enough to play the game from the shoulders down but that is a good thing, because they make better basketball decisions such as better shot selection, fewer turnovers and less fouling. They have a tendency not to beat themselves as much as the Maine men and other men's D-1 college teams do. Would much rather watch the women play then the men play for D-1 college and Pro ball. It is basketball players basketball from the shoulders up not athletes trying to play basketball from the shoulders down.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby Maine19Fan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm

Bcbc55: There's something to your contention that women players/teams need to be more fundamentally sound and aren't as athletic as their male counterparts.
But, you're sadly mistaken if you think men's teams just roll the balls out and let athleticism dictate play. If you ever attended a UMaine practice, I'm sure that you'd see that the attention to fundamental and skill development is equal. The game plans are similarly as comprehensive. That the coaching staff emphasizes team play, rather than individual and athletic play. All of that, though, is only enhanced by the male version's athleticism.

As for turnovers: Did you know that the Maine women's team averages 15.3 TOs per game, compared to 15.9 for the men? Not much of a difference.

Want to know the real difference that explains why the women's program has had more success than the men's program in recent years?
More talent.
No amount of coaching overcomes a lack of talent.
Look at the women's roster of recent years. Not exactly comprised primarily of Maine players, as you continue to advocate.
Five foreign-born players, others from Virginia, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Florida, and California.
Three players from our state who barely contribute.
There were nine (NINE!) foreign-born players on last season's team, one of the better Maine women's teams in recent years.
The women's coaching staff has developed out-of-the-box recruiting abilities in terms of finding and bringing in talent.
It's something the men's staff seems to be leaning towards, as well.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:49 pm

Maine19Fan wrote:Bcbc55: There's something to your contention that women players/teams need to be more fundamentally sound and aren't as athletic as their male counterparts.
But, you're sadly mistaken if you think men's teams just roll the balls out and let athleticism dictate play. If you ever attended a UMaine practice, I'm sure that you'd see that the attention to fundamental and skill development is equal. The game plans are similarly as comprehensive. That the coaching staff emphasizes team play, rather than individual and athletic play. All of that, though, is only enhanced by the male version's athleticism.

As for turnovers: Did you know that the Maine women's team averages 15.3 TOs per game, compared to 15.9 for the men? Not much of a difference.

Want to know the real difference that explains why the women's program has had more success than the men's program in recent years?
More talent.
No amount of coaching overcomes a lack of talent.
Look at the women's roster of recent years. Not exactly comprised primarily of Maine players, as you continue to advocate.
Five foreign-born players, others from Virginia, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Florida, and California.
Three players from our state who barely contribute.
There were nine (NINE!) foreign-born players on last season's team, one of the better Maine women's teams in recent years.
The women's coaching staff has developed out-of-the-box recruiting abilities in terms of finding and bringing in talent.
It's something the men's staff seems to be leaning towards, as well.


Maine19Fan: Then how come this attention to detail in practices and game planning does not hold true in games?

Then if it does it sure is not working nor has it worked for 3 plus seasons or the players haven't bought in or whatever they are doing is not working. (11 transfers in 2 seasons tells you something is wrong)

All I have seen for 3 plus seasons is the same no inside game, no inside-outside game, poor basketball decisions that leads to the things that happened against St. Josephs last game in which Maine beat themselves, with the over abuse of the 3, turnovers, fouling too much, an offense that does not get players to the foul line, does not get them good high percentage shots and an offense that relies completely on the players to decide who shoots, where they hoot from and when they shoot. This system may have worked in D-3 basketball but it sure has not worked to well in D-1 has it and by the way who recruited the players?

So far as the women's program goes, when Peter Gavett (Played for me at Orono High School from 1966-69) was coach 90% of the players were Mainers and when Palumbo was there the Maine players carried the program as did in Versep's tenure also. Where did Baron get his over seas, Canadian, international contacts from? From Doug Leischner, Woodward's number 1 assistant coach who coached overseas in the off season and when Woodward was let go Doug should have been named the interim coach for a year as it was so late to hire a non Maine staff D-1 applicant. However, the Maine athletic staff did not want anyone connected with the Woodward program on staff in any position, other wise the smart move would have been to hire Doug as interim for a year and then go from there the next spring.

Coaches get what they demand. Demand not get not. As John Wooden said, "A coaches best friend is the bench", he should have added the "Wooden Bench" as the benches today are way to comfortable and you don't get splinters fro sitting on soft chairs.

You can make all the excuses you want to why Maine is so poor 21-82 in this current regimes time of 3 plus years and 8 of tose wins are over non-D-1 oppents which makes them 13-82 against D-1 opponents at least 8-0 against non D-1 teams with the highest being D-3 wins.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby Maine19Fan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:30 pm

Here's the only "excuse" for the Maine men's recent woes: Talent.
Or, lack thereof.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:56 pm

Maine19Fan wrote:Here's the only "excuse" for the Maine men's recent woes: Talent.
Or, lack thereof.


Maine19Fan: You might add lack of a thing called coaching. Doing the same things over and over and over again and expecting different results is not a formula for success add to that no inside outside game and living and dying by the three might be coaching decisions or lack of there. Might work D-3 but not in D-1 especially if you don't have as many good athletes then your opponents. I have followed this 21-82 record of the past 3 plus years which is the worst 3 plus years in the men's basketball programs history since 1949. Have not seen many game winning adjustments but have by opponents at half-time, adjusting to the talent recruited and and to playing the percentages of going inside first-outside second instead of living and dying by the 3 and hoping you hot, yeah when your hot your hot, but when your not your not and you lose.

Let's be honest 6 strong independent horses pulling the stagecoach in their own direction does not get to their destination as 6 smaller horses working to gether to get to the same place. Who is responsible for the horses in each case and how they work or do not work together....the Driver also called a coach in basketball, not a suervisor of substitutions. Coaches that demand not and get not.
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Re: Maine19Fan: Go to "Moss Watch: Thread for UM BB coaches

Postby Maine19Fan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:58 am

bcbc55: Could the problem be lack of talent?
As for judging a coach: How would you like it, if you were a coach, having your abilities judged by some so-called "expert" who never saw your game plans, never saw your practices, never saw you teach, never sat in on strategy sessions, didn't know if players were playing with injuries, etc.
Yet, that so-called "expert" merely judged you based on game results when, on a nightly basis, your talent didn't measure up to the opposition?

That would be like having a negative opinion about UMaine's scheduling policy without asking about why Maine plays non-D1 opponents.

My advice: Go to a few practices. I'm sure coach Walsh would welcome such a storehouse of basketball expertise with open arms!
You might be able to teach him how to drive a stagecoach. Or, probably, better to leave that to John Wayne.
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