UConn Loses, UConn Loses

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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby thebam » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:20 pm

Major blowouts in the women's tournament are going to happen. The divide between the haves and the have nots is too vast. Until they reduce the number of teams in the women's tournament to 32 , this will continue to happen.
Avg margin of victory in Round 1 of women's tournament.. over 20. Number of games decided by over 40? 5 .. out of 32.
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:55 pm

Linguist wrote:ahhh, Respect for the game. I will give you that. (But a lack of respect will never end up costing you a game a year later)

I too believe no one should win/lose a game by 50, neither team gains anything from that. It happened in this tournament too. But South Carolina beat UNC Ashville by 50 in the opening round, why didn't respect or karma bite them in the title game?

South Carolina put 100 on the board against Quinnipiac in the Sweet 16 why didn't the Karma boogeyman come and get them then?

I agree with you that coaches should respect the game and the opponent and not run up the score to embarrass another team but sometimes there is such a disparity in talent nothing can be done about it. This isn't Class B Eastern Maine baseketball in 1988 when a team can hold the ball for an entire quarter because there is no shot clock. These teams have to get a shot up every 30 seconds, and if South Carolina is a lot better than UNC Ashville and they make 55% of their shots and UNC-Ashville can't defend or stop them, blowouts happen.

My debate was your contention there is a finite number of points a team is allowed to score, you've backed off that stance now, so that is good.

Enjoy your day.



linquist: I never, ever said or had any CONTENTION that any team has just a certain amount of points for a season. So there is nothing for me to back off on, sorry..

All i said was that "Basketball Karma" can hit you when you intentionally run the score up on teams. And even more so especially over the years like Geno has done.

South Carolina hadn't won 111 straight games and did not have the history of running up the score over the years, especially in their 64-61 and 59-49 scores this year in their games with MS. No need for Basketball Karma against them as they didn't stick it to MS like UConn did in last year's sweet 16 game 98-38.....that was the straw that broke the "basketball Karma's" back for UConn vs. MS.

Geno has nobody to blame for the "Basketball Negative Karma" that got him Friday nite, BUT HIMSELF.

That 60 number that was on the MS locker room door, all year, the embarrassment of the 60 point lost, all played a big part of the motivation for MS vs. UConn for the Carolina Coach and their returning players that had that happened to them. MS did not have that to motivate them to play over their heads against SC even despite their 2 losses to SC.

Don't give me the shot clock reason for run up scores. Ever hear about substituting earlier and running the shot clock down on each possession and going zone to slow the game down even more so as to not run the score up?

I don't care how mismatched the teams are in any game a respectful coach of the game can control the score if they really want to even with a shot clock.
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby parquetfloor » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:22 pm

I have tried to stay out of this, but good grief. In last year's Mississippi State vs UConn game, none of the starters played more than 28 mins. Breanna Stewart, one of the best players in the history of the college game, shot 8-10 from the floor and played 26 mins. Morgan Tuck, one of the top 3 picks in the WNBA draft last year, played 28 mins and shot 7-10. The 3rd senior from that squad last year, Moriah Jefferson (top 3 WNBA draft pick), played 23 mins and shot 2-5. The other 2 starters, freshman Samuelson (28 mins) went 9-14 from the floor and junior Nurse (26 mins) went 3-5. When your starters shoot an obnoxiously high percentage while the other team can't throw it in the ocean, this type of thing can happen. Mississippi State shot a woeful 28.6% from the floor (18-63) and, get this, 0% from 3-pt range as they were 0-14!! Hell, they were only 2-7 (28.6%) from the foul line! Mind you, Mississippi State took 63 shot attempts to UConn's 59 while both teams took 14 3's.

Another way to look at your thinking is that "let's not play the starters because they are just too good." Yeah, that's fair. Hell, they wouldn't have played much all year if that was the case because they crushed many a foe.

Lastly, Mississippi State of the SEC was a 28-7 going into that game. It's not like UConn was beating up on some crappy mid-major team.

Seriously, put on your big boy pants...or in this case, big girl pants.

Geno has a ton of respect for Vic Shaefer. I mean, how insulting would it have been for Miss State if Geno told his players to miss on purpose, don't crash the boards, stand around in a zone, etc?
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:26 pm

parquetfloor wrote:I have tried to stay out of this, but good grief. In last year's Mississippi State vs UConn game, none of the starters played more than 28 mins. Breanna Stewart, one of the best players in the history of the college game, shot 8-10 from the floor and played 26 mins. Morgan Tuck, one of the top 3 picks in the WNBA draft last year, played 28 mins and shot 7-10. The 3rd senior from that squad last year, Moriah Jefferson (top 3 WNBA draft pick), played 23 mins and shot 2-5. The other 2 starters, freshman Samuelson (28 mins) went 9-14 from the floor and junior Nurse (26 mins) went 3-5. When your starters shoot an obnoxiously high percentage while the other team can't throw it in the ocean, this type of thing can happen. Mississippi State shot a woeful 28.6% from the floor (18-63) and, get this, 0% from 3-pt range as they were 0-14!! Hell, they were only 2-7 (28.6%) from the foul line! Mind you, Mississippi State took 63 shot attempts to UConn's 59 while both teams took 14 3's.

Another way to look at your thinking is that "let's not play the starters because they are just too good." Yeah, that's fair. Hell, they wouldn't have played much all year if that was the case because they crushed many a foe.

Lastly, Mississippi State of the SEC was a 28-7 going into that game. It's not like UConn was beating up on some crappy mid-major team.

Seriously, put on your big boy pants...or in this case, big girl pants.

Geno has a ton of respect for Vic Shaefer. I mean, how insulting would it have been for Miss State if Geno s, stand around in a zone, etc?


PF: Just a case of having to agree to disagree. I don't care how many minutes UCONN's starters played or didn't played. There was no need to run up a 60 point win especially when it was in the sweet 16 with all that national attention. Geno and his players paid the price by "Basketball Karma" getting them.

I never ever ran the score upon any opponent. There are very subtle ways of keeping the score down even when people want to use the shot clock as an excuse for not being able to control not running it up or not giving their best players enough minutes.

Look, I know that I am very unorthodox in my basketball thinking as I was as a player, coach, official and now as a fan.and a basketball writer.

My thinking is just, "Different basketball strokes for different basketball folks', that's all so let's just agree to disagree in a positive manner.

I don't go negative on your thoughts do I? I just try to disagree in a positive manner.

Just because you think you are right and I am wrong doesn't mean I have to put on any type of pants. In fact, I was actually wearing shorts when I posted my thoughts on this subject as I am now.
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby thebam » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:13 pm

Are you advocating that the "subs" not score?? Because that's fair to them right? Stop it. Sometimes a team is just that damn good and there isn't anything you can do about it. How about Kim Mulkey and Baylor? 89 point victory in Round 1. You can not tell players to not shoot. EVER. The problem isn't Geno, or Kim or any other coach. The problem is that there is too much separation in the women's game between good and not good.
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby bcbc55 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:30 pm

thebam wrote:Are you advocating that the "subs" not score?? Because that's fair to them right? Stop it. Sometimes a team is just that damn good and there isn't anything you can do about it. How about Kim Mulkey and Baylor? 89 point victory in Round 1. You can not tell players to not shoot. EVER. The problem isn't Geno, or Kim or any other coach. The problem is that there is too much separation in the women's game between good and not good.


thebam: Where did I advocate not having the subs not score?

Yes, the problem is the coaches.

Subtle ways to keep fom running up the score against weak opponents.

1. Get the subs in earlier
2. go zone defense which slows down the game
3. run continuity offensive sets which take more time off the shot clock
4. do not foul as that takes scoring down as teams will not score with the clock not running, takes more time off the clock. if a player foul take them out and wait until another player commits a foul and then the sub who went out can come in
5. Use 5 or 6 passes before you shoot the ball
6. Don't go inside for close shots and where you will have a greater chance to be fouled

"WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY", IF YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO RUN UP THE SCORE ON A VERY WEAK OPPONENT OR ANY OPPONENT FOR THAT MATTER.

Hey, just one of my unorthodox basketball thoughts as I also had as a player, coach and official.

"DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE OTHERS DO UNTO YOU", has always been my basketball motto in not running up the score on opponents.
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby Linguist » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:27 am


BCBC55 wrote :
linquist: I never, ever said or had any CONTENTION that any team has just a certain amount of points for a season. So there is nothing for me to back off on, sorry..

All i said was that "Basketball Karma" can hit you when you intentionally run the score up on teams. And even more so especially over the years like Geno has done.




Well in your very first comment on this (Saturday April 1st), you posted this near the end of your post.

Geno wasted a lot of points running up the scores this season as usual. So when you waste them sometimes you have drained the well when you really needed them and Conn. really needed them!!!!!

Basketball karma is alive and well.


Then in your reply to me a little later that day you wrote this....

That is my opinion based on years of seeing strange things good and bad happen to great teams and great players at all levels of basketball.

Those missed Conn. foul shots late in the game by excellent foul shooters percentage wise didn't drop did they? I wonder why?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one about wasting points.


Monday April 3rd you again responded to me in this fashion :

Your missing my point. By wasting points running up the score like he did last year with his 98-38 win over MS in the sweet 16 round is the kind of how little feelings or little respect he had for MS or the game in that situation.



So you posted multiple times that you thought UConn had a finite number of points and they wasted them, not only this season but dating back to a year ago. So teams not only have a finite number each season, but apparently that number is cumulative as well, or perhaps they roll over each year if they are unused.

Look, the point of not being a jerk and rubbing it in someone's face is easy to agree with you on. But saying a team wastes points in one game that can be used in another one is foolish at best. To say the subs shouldn't score or the starters shouldn't score is ridiculous. And since you've never coached with a shot clock in place, it's hard for you to definitively state the shot clock has no impact on the game, unless you are advocating for teams to dribble out the 30 second clock and turn the ball over each time which is more insulting than scoring.
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby thebam » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:23 am

thebam: Where did I advocate not having the subs not score?



Take Baylor winning by 89, If the subs are doing a majority of the scoring , then what else do you suggest?
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby parquetfloor » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:43 am

Linguist wrote:Look, the point of not being a jerk and rubbing it in someone's face is easy to agree with you on. But saying a team wastes points in one game that can be used in another one is foolish at best. To say the subs shouldn't score or the starters shouldn't score is ridiculous. And since you've never coached with a shot clock in place, it's hard for you to definitively state the shot clock has no impact on the game, unless you are advocating for teams to dribble out the 30 second clock and turn the ball over each time which is more insulting than scoring.


Exactly! Mississippi State TOOK MORE SHOTS than UConn did, yet they still lost by 60 points!!! UConn shot ridiculously well in that game and played an amazing game (I remember thinking how impressive they were). The shot clock has a HUGE effect on a game and to think it doesn't is just ignorant. Teams cannot just hold the ball but they HAVE TO SHOOT. Like Linguist and I have pointed out, it would be way more insulting to not shoot & dribble out the shot clock than to run their offense for the whole length of the shot clock and then take the shot. I mean, in a 60 minute game with a 30 second shot clock, they only took 59 shots! If they wanted to press & push the tempo, that could easily have been a much higher number.
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Re: UConn Loses, UConn Loses

Postby turkeyman » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:30 pm

Blowouts are good for no one. The winning teams learns little if anything. The losing team is humiliated, although sometimes it takes motivation from a pasting and digs a bit deeper. Witness Mississippi State. The fans of the winning team usually lose interest in the game and head home early.

But preventing blowouts? You can't. Parity is still not here in wbb, though it may be closer than we think. Since the first NCAA Div-1 tourney on the women's side, the women's game has had 15 champions. The men have had 19 champions in that period. True, wbb has been dominated in those 36 years by UT (8) and UConn (11). On the women's side one 16 seed has beat a one (Harvard over Stanford) but never a 15 over a two. The men's side has never seen a 16 upset a one, but eight twos have beat 15s and 21 threes have beat 14s. The women's side does not compare.

We saw against Clemson in 2015 what can happen when you sub too soon or too many. Clemson started to make a run on Maine after the last five Maine five players on the bench came in. Maine had no organization, no execution. Barron, in frustration, put the starters back in. Can't think of a time that he did that again, and this year's team paid a bit of a price for it because only Sigi among the underclass players had much playing time. Many coaches never sub out all five starters but leave one on the floor for adult supervision when the end of the bench comes in. But a coach knows how strong her bench is and will avoid the humiliation of giving up a 20-point lead by keeping the top eight or nine playing until the game is out of reach for certain.

Every team has a character. If your team excels in transition, scoring on turnovers and rebounds, then telling the kids to stall down to five seconds on the shot clock on each possession won't work. You train all year to score quickly, and then you turn that around? Not likely. If your team's game is inside-outside, you can't tell the players to give up the inside half of their game. Continue making the entry pass, looking for the layup or to kick it back out for the three.

If your team usually plays a tough physical game and fouls a lot, the coach has figured out how to deal with that. But the coach cannot in one timeout suddenly change the team's character into a team that doesn't play hard and physically. How do you tell players not to do their best? Whether they start or they leave the spot by the water cooler to get into the game, you want them to do their best.

If you watched the NCAA men's final last night, you might have noticed that both the Zags and UNC passed the ball often and quickly, at least during the first half when I was watching. Five or six passes might use up four to six seconds. That's not much of a solution to the problem of blowouts.

The solution is long-term, and it involves recruiting and coaching. There are still some pretty unproductive coaches at the Div-I level. There are still coaches who cannot sell their program. Liz Wood came to Maine to get a pre-med education and to help rebuild a program. She did both. Barron persuaded her that she could be a big part of a big deal. Not all coaches can do that. Athletic directors and search committees have to look for coaches who need to excel, not just coaches who will ensure the school meets Title IX requirements. Until that happens, we won't have parity. And without something closer to parity, we will continue to have scores of 98-38 and 116-55.

No one likes a blowout. Or almost no one. Only once have I seen a crowd truly delight in a blowout. That was when VCU beat the Maine women 82-47 at Richmond in 2012-13 (the 4-24/bus crash season). The VCU band, about 30 players in a crowd announced as 368, taunted Maine's players and its handful of fans relentlessly. For the most part the rest of the "crowd" joined in and enjoyed the verbal abuse against Maine. The worst part was that the leader of the taunting was the supposedly grown-up band director, presumably a faculty member. It lasted the entire game, and Maine was never in the game. A classic blowout on a trip in which Maine also lost to JMU by 84-34. VCU was shameful and left a lifelong distaste in my mouth for VCU. Even Shaka Smart couldn't make VCU look good to me after that. Almost no one likes a blowout.

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Last edited by turkeyman on Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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