Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

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Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby bcbc55 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:05 am

Usually write up the games and the stats for Tom, but not tonight after watching both games streamed on line.

Left eye on the men's game on the desktop and the right eye on the lap top and should have had a clothespin on my nose for both games.

Men: What else is going to happen? 4 players all of which get double figure minutes suspended but not the reason why were given by Coach other then not meeting some kind of team standard.

Still playing intramural basketball with using 9 players double figure minutes and used 7 players double figure minutes although tonite just like when they were down to 6 or 7 players because of injuries they played better. Group tonite put forth a good hard effort being so short handed.

Lost to UNH t home earlier 74-63, lost tonight minus 4 double figure minute player @ UNH by 64-51..

Women: Disappointing that they do not set MORE, MORE, MORE screens to the ball with the bigs for Sigi forcing the switch so she can go one on one against the defensive big who switched on her or Sigi can hit the screener rolling to the hoop.

If a Maine shooter sets the screen for Sigi then have the screener fake a screen roll and then loop back to behind the 3 point line for an open three or Sigi can go one one one on the smaller defender who switched to guard Sigi.

If the women do not get Sigi more involved offensively as she is too unselfish then they will not have a chance to win the AE Championship tourney.

Also, more men's basketball disease of using 9 players intramural style tonight by playing the 9 players double figure minute.....not going to work any better for the women then it has for the men.....7 players is the max for double figure minutes unless because of foul trouble, poor play or injury.

Barron only used 7 players.Bye the way any news on him?
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby MaineBBFan99 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:41 pm

If the women do not get Sigi more involved offensively as she is too unselfish then they will not have a chance to win the AE Championship tourney.


I would argue that Sigi, with 15 field goal attempts and 7 foul shots, was adequately involved in last night's offense. This level of involvement/offensive aggression on the part of Sigi needs to continue during postseason play, or Maine doesn't have a chance to run off 3 straight games.

For me, the big issue recently has been that Maine's defense has been nonexistent. They let Pogue score inside at will last night and allowed Stony Brook's guards too much dribble penetration.

Also, more men's basketball disease of using 9 players intramural style tonight by playing the 9 players double figure minute.....not going to work any better for the women then it has for the men.....7 players is the max for double figure minutes unless because of foul trouble, poor play or injury.


Please provide concrete evidence that, as a general rule, playing more than 7 players is sub-optimal. First of all, how did you land on the number 7? Seems pretty arbitrary to me. Second of all, the evidence for the women's team, at least this season, is far from conclusive. Maine is 6-5 on the season when 7 or fewer players play double digit minutes and 9-9 when 8 or more players play double digit minutes.
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:31 am

MaineBBFan99 wrote:
If the women do not get Sigi more involved offensively as she is too unselfish then they will not have a chance to win the AE Championship tourney.


I would argue that Sigi, with 15 field goal attempts and 7 foul shots, was adequately involved in last night's offense. This level of involvement/offensive aggression on the part of Sigi needs to continue during postseason play, or Maine doesn't have a chance to run off 3 straight games.

For me, the big issue recently has been that Maine's defense has been nonexistent. They let Pogue score inside at will last night and allowed Stony Brook's guards too much dribble penetration.

Also, more men's basketball disease of using 9 players intramural style tonight by playing the 9 players double figure minute.....not going to work any better for the women then it has for the men.....7 players is the max for double figure minutes unless because of foul trouble, poor play or injury.


Please provide concrete evidence that, as a general rule, playing more than 7 players is sub-optimal. First of all, how did you land on the number 7? Seems pretty arbitrary to me. Second of all, the evidence for the women's team, at least this season, is far from conclusive. Maine is 6-5 on the season when 7 or fewer players play double digit minutes and 9-9 when 8 or more players play double digit minutes.


Maine BBfan99. Good interesting post. Agree with some of your statements. As I stated they have got to set more screens to Sigi when she has the ball by the Bigs and roll or the shooters faking a roll and looping back for the 3.

Excellent question about using 7 players vs. using 9 or more.

It is not an arbitrary figure for me. I base it on my experiences as a high school and college player and as a high school coach.

In fact, when I coached I never went deeper then 6 or 7 players unless, they were playing poorly, not doing what I wanted them to, foul trouble or injury.

My high school coach only used 7 players and we won the state L championship and finished 3rd in the New England Schoolboy Tournament held at the Old Boston Gardens.

My college coach always kept me on the floor for 40 minute unless the game was decided one way or another and we went undefeated 3 years in a row in regular season conference play and won a state college championship and also a year as runnersup. He maybe used 8 in college. I can't remember in college as I was playing all 40 minutes per game unless the game had been decided as I stated previously.

In D-1 college today because of the 8 media timeouts and the 10 team fouls you certainly don't need to rest players.

Better for them to wear out on the court then to rust out on the bench.

Smart players back when I played knew how to pace themselves so that they always had to be defended and known where they where on the court when his team had the ball on offense.

Your best player should play 40 minutes per game at the D-1 college level, next 2 best players 35 minutes 2 at 30 each and the subs 30 minutes between them.

Players need to be on the floor and when they are playing less then 30 minutes per game unless they are the subs, they have a tendency to "try to make hay while the sunshines" by taking themselves to the game by forcing the play and not letting the game come to them.

Impatient players have a greater tendency to force the action by making poor basketball decisions, which creates poor shot selection, turnovers on offense and committing more fouls on defense, etc.

One year when coaching in high school where we did not have media timeouts only 5 team timeouts for each tam we used just 5 players and only substituted if we had a player playing poorly, in foul trouble, injured, ill, etc.

We won a state championship going 19-3 in games and we used the same starting five for all 22 games and nobody fouled out, missed a game for any reasons and we only used the sixth man when it was absolutely necessary which was never more than 10 minutes a game. Usually 4 of the starters all played the full 32 minutes in close games.

Just my philosophy based on my playing and coaching experiences. This is not Intramural Basketball and many time college coaches promise players that they recruit guarantee them a certain amount playing time if they come to their school. Some even promise them they will start. I heard it all when having some of my HS players being recruited by D-1 schools.

Many D-1 teams try to keep all the scholarship players happy by spreading out the minutes which I feel leads to losing programs because of the reasons I mentioned previously.

Plus, basketball is a rhythm game especially shooting, getting a feeling of the pace of the game and so on.

Teams better players do not hurt the other team when they are sitting on the bench for more than 15 minutes.

Especially in today's college game that has 18 time outs and the longest a player is going to play is 4 minutes if his or the other team doesn't call a time out. Media time outs at the 16-12-8-4 per half and each team has 1 60 or 75 and 4-30 second timeouts. So substituting to rest players is not or should not be a factor today in the D-1 college game.

My experience as a coach and a player even without media timeouts made for a better team because the better players were always a threat on the floor but not when they are on the bench.

The Maine men played better when they were down to 6 players due to injuries as they were using 9-10 player double figure minutes prior to the injuries and then when they got back to 9 players they went back to 9 players playing double figure minutes they declined in their level of play if that is even possible.

Coach Barron never went beyond 7 players and if Coach Vachon continues to plays 9 players double figure minutes then they will not be as successful as when they were using just 7 players.

Last year no men's team player played more than 29 minutes per game and you wonder why the better players transferred????

"Different basketball, strokes for different basketball folks". OR : What floats your basketball boat may nit float my basketball boat".

Enjoyed your post and responding to it. You made Excellent questions and points.
Last edited by bcbc55 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:31 am

MaineBBFan99 wrote:
If the women do not get Sigi more involved offensively as she is too unselfish then they will not have a chance to win the AE Championship tourney.


I would argue that Sigi, with 15 field goal attempts and 7 foul shots, was adequately involved in last night's offense. This level of involvement/offensive aggression on the part of Sigi needs to continue during postseason play, or Maine doesn't have a chance to run off 3 straight games.

For me, the big issue recently has been that Maine's defense has been nonexistent. They let Pogue score inside at will last night and allowed Stony Brook's guards too much dribble penetration.

Also, more men's basketball disease of using 9 players intramural style tonight by playing the 9 players double figure minute.....not going to work any better for the women then it has for the men.....7 players is the max for double figure minutes unless because of foul trouble, poor play or injury.


Please provide concrete evidence that, as a general rule, playing more than 7 players is sub-optimal. First of all, how did you land on the number 7? Seems pretty arbitrary to me. Second of all, the evidence for the women's team, at least this season, is far from conclusive. Maine is 6-5 on the season when 7 or fewer players play double digit minutes and 9-9 when 8 or more players play double digit minutes.
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby MaineBBFan99 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:17 am

Many D-1 teams try to keep all the scholarship players happy by spreading out the minutes which I feel leads to losing programs because of the reasons I mentioned previously.


I would be surprised if the Maine women's team fell into this category and that it's number one goal wasn't to be as successful as possible this season. Does the team want to give scholarship players valuable experience that could pay dividends down the road? Sure, but not to the detriment of winning right now.

Plus, basketball is a rhythm game especially shooting, getting a feeling of the pace of the game and so on.


Absolutely a valid point. The question is if Maine playing more than 7 players is adversely affecting players' rhythm/shooting. Possibly, but the evidence for this year's women's team is hardly conclusive on this front.

Especially in today's college game that has 18 time outs and the longest a player is going to play is 4 minutes if his or the other team doesn't call a time out. Media time outs at the 16-12-8-4 per half and each team has 1 60 or 75 and 4-30 second timeouts. So substituting to rest players is not or should not be a factor today in the D-1 college game.


Agreed that fatigue, especially in the college game, is overrated when people cite the benefits of a deep bench.

Coach Barron never went beyond 7 players and if Coach Vachon continues to plays 9 players double figure minutes then they will not be as successful as when they were using just 7 players.


Untrue. In 7 of the 16 games Barron coached, 8 or more players played double digit minutes. Again, based on this year's statistics, one cannot definitively conclude that they will be more successful playing just 7 players per game. Perhaps a multi-season analysis would support your assertion.
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby turkeyman » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:31 am

If I hadn't been at the game and had only looked as the stat sheet, I might have said the Maine women played pretty well. Blanca, who had been sick on Sunday, had a good game shooting. It seemed like Sigi was shooting 50 percent or better, not 40. Maine had only eight turnovers, just two by the starters. Maine had 11 steals. Fanny hit one shot early, missed seven others. Apart from her 1-8, Maine shot 45 percent, enough to win most Div. I games. Yet Maine lost. The keys to the game may not show up in the stat sheet.

Biggest thing I noticed was the weakness on the boards (which does show up in the box score). If you shoot 40 percent and only 15 percent from three-point range, you need offensive boards. Maine got four all night. Way too many Maine shots went up with no white suits in the paint. UNH usually had two and often three defenders within four or five feet of the bucket when Maine shot. Poor shot selection, poor positioning for rebounds.

More than that, Maine's kids just did not hustle after rebounds, and UNH did. You might say Maine's players were too ladylike. "Oh, you want that rebound. OK, don't let me stand in your way." And, too often, one or two Maine players would watch another Maine player contest a rebound but not jump in to help. Not at all aggressive. When your leading rebounder is a 5-8 guard, you need to work harder on the boards.

Ditto on defense. You can bet McGarity saw on the Stony Brook tape how easily Bayne-Walker and Sconagmiglio had driven on Maine. Brittni Lai and Olivia Healy had no trouble getting to the paint and when they didn't shoot, they dished to Pogue for easy buckets. Maine was at least a half-step behind on defense all night. Maine made it all too easy for UNH to execute its game plan. Drive to the block, stop the three, box out. It worked.

True that Maine was not looking to win this year so much as to integrate virtually an entire new team into its system and to "Americanize" seven new players. That makes the discussion moot about PT. The goal was to see what these kids bring to the team. In that regard, it was good to see Tihana get minutes against UNH. She's one of the most athletic players and will likely improve her basketball skills in time. Go as deeply on the bench as necessary to see what each kid can do and to start learning which combinations of players work in each circumstance. When these freshmen are juniors and seniors, then we can talk about how short the bench should be.

But, sometimes it's hard to be patient.

Still, winning 18 to 20 games was a reasonable expectation for this season. Not likely to happen unless Maine goes to the WBI again. Maine has really good wins over Purdue, Chattanooga and Albany but some really bad losses to UVM, Stony Brook and Hampton. Other games were winnable but it just didn't happen. Harvard, UMBC (there), Binghamton, BC and even Tulane. It's odd, when a team loses by 37, but some say Maine played its best against South Carolina. I have heard people say that if Maine just played as well as it did in that game it would be contending for the AE title. And, I have seen South Carolina in person this year. I take encouragement that Maine's heavily freshman team even stayed on the court with the Gamecocks. I hope lessons learned so far pay off in the final two games and into the tournament(s).

Bob Neal
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:26 pm

MaineBBFan99 wrote:
Many D-1 teams try to keep all the scholarship players happy by spreading out the minutes which I feel leads to losing programs because of the reasons I mentioned previously.


I would be surprised if the Maine women's team fell into this category and that it's number one goal wasn't to be as successful as possible this season. Does the team want to give scholarship players valuable experience that could pay dividends down the road? Sure, but not to the detriment of winning right now.

Plus, basketball is a rhythm game especially shooting, getting a feeling of the pace of the game and so on.


Absolutely a valid point. The question is if Maine playing more than 7 players is adversely affecting players' rhythm/shooting. Possibly, but the evidence for this year's women's team is hardly conclusive on this front.

Especially in today's college game that has 18 time outs and the longest a player is going to play is 4 minutes if his or the other team doesn't call a time out. Media time outs at the 16-12-8-4 per half and each team has 1 60 or 75 and 4-30 second timeouts. So substituting to rest players is not or should not be a factor today in the D-1 college game.


Agreed that fatigue, especially in the college game, is overrated when people cite the benefits of a deep bench.

Coach Barron never went beyond 7 players and if Coach Vachon continues to plays 9 players double figure minutes then they will not be as successful as when they were using just 7 players.


Untrue. In 7 of the 16 games Barron coached, 8 or more players played double digit minutes. Again, based on this year's statistics, one cannot definitively conclude that they will be more successful playing just 7 players per game. Perhaps a multi-season analysis would support your assertion.


MaineBBfan99: Excellent response and all valid points vs. my points.

Won't disagree that much if you want to go 8 deep instead of 7.

Good that we agree on fatigue being overrated in college game and that basketball is a game of rhythm.

As far as building this year, it will be very hard to replace Sigi next year even though she had the injury problem and missed several games and has been playing hurt and is just now seem to be near back to 100%.

Her leadership skills will be missed more then her playing skills as neither Barron or Vachon has used her properly to get more production from her and her teammates especially the use of setting screens for her as I mentioned. That has been disappointing.

There is no one on the current roster that has shown that they are ready to takeover for Sigi and that was evident in the games she missed and has played at less than 100%.

Enjoyed the back and forth posts.

I still believe if Sigi gets back to 100% physically and that they use more screens for her that Maine can make a good run in the AE Tourney this year.
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby MaineBBFan99 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:25 pm

I always look forward to your posts and the great insight you provide, turkeyman. Thank you.

I'm curious, do you consider Maine a contender for this year's AE tournament crown?
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby turkeyman » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:30 pm

Maine99,

Not really. Earlier on, I thought the rate of progress might make Maine a contender. The progress slowed down, though, amid bad losses. I hesitate to state a time that became apparent because almost anything one said could reflect negatively and unfairly on Barron or Vachon or both. None of us knows enough, I believe, to blame either or both for the disappointing losses in conference (UVM, SBU, Bingo, UMBC especially, but also UNH x 2). Maine was actually in three of those games and clawed its way back into a fourth. Almost did that again vs. UNH on Wednesday, getting to within four.

There is so much talent on this team that I sometimes fantasize it will come about and will race through the AE. That might have been more possible if the tournament were in the best venue in the conference, the Cross Insurance Center. I don't think of the former CCCC as a home court. Apart from a few hundred southern Maine alums, some southern Maine girls high-school teams and the usual crowd of rural Maine diehards who will go to Portland, the team doesn't have much home-court edge. I have long thought it was a lousy place to play and to watch basketball.

Most likely, I believe, is UNH vs. Albany, with Albany rising up to take it. UMBC, if it can keep everyone healthy, especially Pandora Wilson, is a strong possibility, too. Laura Castaldo has been a reliable scorer, with Wilson or without her. McCarley is one of the two best points in AE. Five/four seed is most likely for Maine. Win that, and second game is UNH, and UNH fans -- you know, the ones who never attend games at Durham -- many of whom live in southern Maine, would turn out. More Storeys live in the town of Cumberland than usually attend UNH home games. You know they'll be there.

Still, hope springs eternal. Would be nice to see Sigi and Sher go out on a high note. If Maine won the AE tourney, it might get a 15 or even 14 seed, considering (last time I looked) it has the 55th best strength of schedule. UNH, which is 305th in SoS, has a lock on a 16 seed and would be fodder for the machine from Storrs. One (quarter) and done.

Most likely scenario is Maine finishes 17-16 (split final two regular season games, win first round in AE) and applies for the WBI. Anything can happen in that show, as it did three years ago when Maine smoked Bucknell at Bangor. Maine goes 18-15 or even 19-14, and WNIT is possible because of SoS, I believe. I only said possible.

Thanks for the kind words, 99. I'm already wondering what I'll do with my time when the season is done. I expect my wife is making a list.

Bob Neal
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Re: Bad Night for Both UMaine Basketball teams vs. UNH

Postby bcbc55 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:51 pm

Bob: The CIA in Portland is the poorest basketball arena (should I say hockey) to shoot in because of the poor non existing close shooting backgrounds.

The best shooting background is the Portland Expo, the CIC in Bangor is the 2nd best court for a shooting background IF is set up the way it is for all Maine home men's or women's games. As they do not center the court like the mpa does for the high school tournaments.

For Maine games the court is set up as close as they can to the bottom of the horseshoe shaped seating. Maine then puts small aluminum bleachers at the other end with back black drop clothes behind the bleachers. This produces a better shooting background then the mpa setup.

Although the Portland Expo only seats around 3000 it is the best basketball venue of the 4 big arenas in Maine.

America East could play 2 afternoon games and 2 evening games for the quarter-finals. separate sessions for the semi-finals afternoon and evening and 1 session for the final.

Other than for the Maine quarter-final the Expo would probably would hold whatever crowds that would want to see the non quarter-final games excluding the Maine quarter-final game.

I base this on the crowds I see online when Maine is on the road against the other 8 conference teams.

Portland's CIA is just a hickey rink that thriews down a basketball court on top of the ice.

Ratings for basketball facilities atmosphere and shooting backgrounds:
1.Portland Expo...(Only Negative only holds 3000)
2. Bangor CIA (Only negative is if NOT set up like for UMaine home games) ...other wise a tie with Augusta Civic Center
3. Augusta Civic Center...(Only negative poor shooting backgrounds)
4. Portland CIA..(Negatives: Poorest shooting background
of the 4 sites..Just a big hockey arena...Too spacious for basketball especially directly behind the baskets to the seats on the end and too far away from the court on the sides and no basketball atmosphere at all)
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